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by Vixen on 25 April 2010 - 18:04
To simplify things more..... Know and evaluate your dog unbiasedly. The dog should surely be HEALTHY and checked/examined for potential health issues. Temperament and character well-balanced and confident. The Breeder should have appropriate experience with the Breed. Dog should have a good sound attitude. If dog is required to work in any of the Sports, than obviously a proven successful competing dog will help a potential Buyer or another Breeder to focus on observing not only that dog but most probably progeny too!
Breeding is surely about looking to improve on the Breed. (I was surprised and saddened to hear a comment that if a dog in working trials had an excellent attitude of bite, but unfortunately poor border-line hip score, this issue would be regarded as an acceptable trade-off)! What else are people prepared to over-look, and do? Is that the way forward in breeding the GSD or any dog? Allowing the possibility of poor hips to be inherited to a litter of puppies and perhaps some of those go on to breed as well, and so the problem continues........ :(
So back to the first paragraph ..... Overall consideration of the dog in question in all areas to promote the best possible outcome, gives the best balance of reputable breeding.
Vixen
Breeding is surely about looking to improve on the Breed. (I was surprised and saddened to hear a comment that if a dog in working trials had an excellent attitude of bite, but unfortunately poor border-line hip score, this issue would be regarded as an acceptable trade-off)! What else are people prepared to over-look, and do? Is that the way forward in breeding the GSD or any dog? Allowing the possibility of poor hips to be inherited to a litter of puppies and perhaps some of those go on to breed as well, and so the problem continues........ :(
So back to the first paragraph ..... Overall consideration of the dog in question in all areas to promote the best possible outcome, gives the best balance of reputable breeding.
Vixen
by VonIsengard on 25 April 2010 - 19:04
I'm coming into this one late, but here's my take, as a dog trainer who works with all breeds, many of them with various genetic temperment flaws. I am also referring to all breeds of dogs, and mixed breeds.
I tell clients (I'm talking pet owners, NOT working dog owners!) regularly, "You can cheat genetics to a point with very good training." What I mean by that is, you can take a puppy that is naturally a spooky, nervy, etc. and with excellent training turn the dog into a safe, stable companion. Will the dog ever excel as a working dog? No. Can a dog with inherent dog aggression be taught to walk down the street in a heel position and pay no mind to passing dogs? Absolutely. Should it romp at the dog park? Hell, no. I can teach your overprotective, hardass dog to sit politely when you meet someone but I won't be suggesting you make it a therapy dog.
A dog that is genetically predisposed to a particular temperment or personality trait will likely always be limited. Training will control and manage, and never really fix.
Now, you also have dogs that are genetically sound dogs, whose weak behaviors have been learned. I've seen a fair share of dogs who are actually pretty strong dogs act like neurotic freaks because it gets them coddled and babied. Correctly trained, while the dog is still young, behaviors identical to the prior group of dogs I talked about can actually be completely resolved permanenty. The trick is, of course, knowing as a trainer how to tell the difference.
As for working dogs- an outstanding trainer can make an average dog look very good, and a weak handler can make a wonderful dog look like crap. But I don't care how good you are, you'll never make a powerful working dog out of a nervebag. However, you can destroy a good working dog with garbage training. There have been dogs I've had to work with for YEARS to uncover their real personality before some asshat slapped on a sharpened prong collar and started slamming away.
My answer to the question? Well, I'd never go out and buy a genetically weak dog, of course I want the best specimen I can get so the dog's only limitation is me. ;) But there is no substitute for good genes OR good training. To succeed, a dog must have both.
I tell clients (I'm talking pet owners, NOT working dog owners!) regularly, "You can cheat genetics to a point with very good training." What I mean by that is, you can take a puppy that is naturally a spooky, nervy, etc. and with excellent training turn the dog into a safe, stable companion. Will the dog ever excel as a working dog? No. Can a dog with inherent dog aggression be taught to walk down the street in a heel position and pay no mind to passing dogs? Absolutely. Should it romp at the dog park? Hell, no. I can teach your overprotective, hardass dog to sit politely when you meet someone but I won't be suggesting you make it a therapy dog.
A dog that is genetically predisposed to a particular temperment or personality trait will likely always be limited. Training will control and manage, and never really fix.
Now, you also have dogs that are genetically sound dogs, whose weak behaviors have been learned. I've seen a fair share of dogs who are actually pretty strong dogs act like neurotic freaks because it gets them coddled and babied. Correctly trained, while the dog is still young, behaviors identical to the prior group of dogs I talked about can actually be completely resolved permanenty. The trick is, of course, knowing as a trainer how to tell the difference.
As for working dogs- an outstanding trainer can make an average dog look very good, and a weak handler can make a wonderful dog look like crap. But I don't care how good you are, you'll never make a powerful working dog out of a nervebag. However, you can destroy a good working dog with garbage training. There have been dogs I've had to work with for YEARS to uncover their real personality before some asshat slapped on a sharpened prong collar and started slamming away.
My answer to the question? Well, I'd never go out and buy a genetically weak dog, of course I want the best specimen I can get so the dog's only limitation is me. ;) But there is no substitute for good genes OR good training. To succeed, a dog must have both.
by Prager on 25 April 2010 - 21:04
Now please read this carefully. I am saying this only because I have been misunderstood on this topic before.:
It is relative. Or "it depends" so to speak.
In order to answer this question you must answer another one first in order to qualify the issue.
Are you looking at a pup or are you looking on a finished dog? And then all is clear.
If you look at the 6 weeks old pup with 0 training then genetics is 100% most important part of the future of potentially trained dog.
If you look at finished, trained dog then genetics are 10% and training which was put into it is 90%.
I always say:
It is like a building.
Genetics is the foundation. What you build on top of this foundation (genetics) is up on the trainer. You may have a great foundation but you can build a shit house on it or you can build a complicated sky scraper.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by beetree on 25 April 2010 - 21:04
Like turning the pyramid upside down as the dog gets older .... it is not a static equation but the answer is always the same?
by yoshy on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
Vixen: I was surprised and saddened to hear a comment that if a dog in working trials had an excellent attitude of bite, but unfortunately poor border-line hip score, this issue would be regarded as an acceptable trade-off)! What else are people prepared to over-look, and do?
--------
just because a dog may have a borderline hip according to ofa does not mean the dog will become dysplastic nor does it me he/she would pass this on to its progeny. So of the greatest dogs of our century have been borderline or genetically flawed in some facet or another, yet those traits were taken into consideration in selecting a matching breeding and produced some great progeny. You can put 2 dogs with excellent hips together and still produce dysplastic dogs. Genetics is a game of percentages.
How do you get balance if you throw out every dog that may have a flaw? we wouldnt have any dogs left. A wise man once said- There is no such thing as the perfect dog.
--------
just because a dog may have a borderline hip according to ofa does not mean the dog will become dysplastic nor does it me he/she would pass this on to its progeny. So of the greatest dogs of our century have been borderline or genetically flawed in some facet or another, yet those traits were taken into consideration in selecting a matching breeding and produced some great progeny. You can put 2 dogs with excellent hips together and still produce dysplastic dogs. Genetics is a game of percentages.
How do you get balance if you throw out every dog that may have a flaw? we wouldnt have any dogs left. A wise man once said- There is no such thing as the perfect dog.
by Gustav on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
Yoschy, I wrote a post similar to yours and discarded it because I think its fruitless. I would breed a borderline dog out of a litter in which all the other siblings had good hips, before I would touch an OFA good dog out of a litter that also had three moderate or severe dogs. some people breed dogs and others breed hips......its not the same!
by Prager on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
Darryl,
I got here late, but I have just read the article on effects of ENS (Early Neurological Stimulation) which you have posted.
It is just about self evident and proven by Cakmen Battaglia that pups which are put through mild stresses situation will physiologically "learn" how to deal with these and other situations and cope with them better then dogs which are not subject to such situations.
Here are mesurable benefits acording to Battaglia:
Improved cardio vascular performance (heart rate)
Stronger heart beats
Stronger adrenal glands
More tolerance to stress
Greater resistance to disease
I can not understand why would someone/anyone disagree with this. The article is silly and smacks with political correctness promoting none (0) stressful none conflict upbringing and environment for children. I believe that one of the most important attributes during early socialization of pups (or children for that matter) is achieved through introducing the pups and enable them to deal with stress and how to overcome stressful situation. This is the truth whith not just ENS but also with all the socialization.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
I got here late, but I have just read the article on effects of ENS (Early Neurological Stimulation) which you have posted.
It is just about self evident and proven by Cakmen Battaglia that pups which are put through mild stresses situation will physiologically "learn" how to deal with these and other situations and cope with them better then dogs which are not subject to such situations.
Here are mesurable benefits acording to Battaglia:
Improved cardio vascular performance (heart rate)
Stronger heart beats
Stronger adrenal glands
More tolerance to stress
Greater resistance to disease
I can not understand why would someone/anyone disagree with this. The article is silly and smacks with political correctness promoting none (0) stressful none conflict upbringing and environment for children. I believe that one of the most important attributes during early socialization of pups (or children for that matter) is achieved through introducing the pups and enable them to deal with stress and how to overcome stressful situation. This is the truth whith not just ENS but also with all the socialization.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by yoshy on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
Hans,
By stressful situations for pups- what exactly do you mean? as in examples
Also regarding stress how do move up and down on those stressful situations?
just curious to what you normally would subject your pups to and how you progress them?- on the average(taking into consideration the difference in each individual)
If you dont mind.
By stressful situations for pups- what exactly do you mean? as in examples
Also regarding stress how do move up and down on those stressful situations?
just curious to what you normally would subject your pups to and how you progress them?- on the average(taking into consideration the difference in each individual)
If you dont mind.
by Prager on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
by NoCurs on 25 April 2010 - 22:04
I guess the good thing is that either way people are out doing things with their dogs!
Very true! I will add that one of the sad things about Swissies is that as a breed they suffere severely from HD. : (
As to evaluating dogs, for 20 years in animal control I had to make a lot of very, very quick decisions on euthanasia with owner turn in dogs (due to the fact that we got many more each day than we could keep, space wise). I have found that for me, making direct eye contact, with a neutral face can tell you so dang much about a dog. Most particularily if the dog is not being held by the owner. A dog without fear in its heart can meet your neutral stare without fear. But those with weaker nerves will respond to the "pressure" of your not "coo-cooing" it. This will cause the dog to start to "fall apart". Something that simple. Not trying to say that this is the way to test for police work, etc, but I am saying it is one helluva way to start!
Very true! I will add that one of the sad things about Swissies is that as a breed they suffere severely from HD. : (
As to evaluating dogs, for 20 years in animal control I had to make a lot of very, very quick decisions on euthanasia with owner turn in dogs (due to the fact that we got many more each day than we could keep, space wise). I have found that for me, making direct eye contact, with a neutral face can tell you so dang much about a dog. Most particularily if the dog is not being held by the owner. A dog without fear in its heart can meet your neutral stare without fear. But those with weaker nerves will respond to the "pressure" of your not "coo-cooing" it. This will cause the dog to start to "fall apart". Something that simple. Not trying to say that this is the way to test for police work, etc, but I am saying it is one helluva way to start!
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