2009 USA Nationals - Page 7

Denise, if it is true as you stated above that some competitors were given point gifts, how is that different than the allegations that some showline dogs were given bitework gifts during the protection exercise at the sieger shows?  And which competitors were given point gifts?
Judy

 Hi Denise . . . thanks for the kind words.  Just to clarify, my dog is Tino vom grauen Bund.  Thanks for attending and supporting!

Jim

I find it very discouraging, and very disappointing - that the OB judge awarded a dog with V score that was obviously force-trained and under great deal of pressure in the work.  In fact, isn't there a rule for this?  Dogs showing pressure in the work cannot be awarded V score?  If it's not a rule it should be.  So this handler is reinforced and rewarded for training the dog with pain and pressure - so it will continue.  Perhaps if the points were taken because of obvious pressure in the work, the training methods would be re-evaluated and life would be better for the dog.  What a shame to reward this kind of training to get the "points", when the sport is supposed to be fun and rewarding for both handler AND dog.

molly

I'm guessing here but I don't think that dogs at that (National) level of competition make it to that level by training with cookies and hugs exclusively.  A dog that receives nothing but pain and pressure, does not find the work at least somewhat enjoyable, is not well cared for nor does it have a good bond with its handler so that it wants to do the work  - would shut down and never have a chance to V rate.  Leave personal agenda's at the door:)     

Sorry about that Jim, I saw the name (sire of your dog) in the book since I crossed out the name of your dog because it was not the right name in the first place, either way job well done.

Denise

no, not cookies and treat-training - of course.  But pain/pressure training that is abusive can and does still "make the points" and should not be awarded despite being "correct" - if the pressure is such that is is obvious in the dog during the work.  IMO - and as I asked - isn't it a rule that dogs who are obviously under pressure are not awarded V?  Guess not.  What a shame for the sport to award obvious abuse of a dog in training for points.

molly

Obvious abuse?   Perhaps I missed something....what dog showed signs of obvious abuse?   I've found that just because a person perceives (regards as being such) or would like others to perceive it as such .......does not necessarily make it so.

Molly,

  There were 3 "V'" obedience scores at the Nationals.  It seems to me that which ever of those three you are referring to must be doing something right; perhaps you could learn something about training from any one of the three that made "V".

MY question is.  OBVIOUS pressure exhibited by a dog in a trial - is awarded V because the dog showing obvious pressue (stemming from obvious pressure/pain/ABUSE in training) because it is correct.  Not happy, not motivated, not animated - but correct.  It is correct but works with obvious pressure.  Should it be awarded V score because it's correct?  I think it is a shame that this happened.  And I think it is a shame that people don't agree. 

Usually a dog that is force-and pressure trained falls apart a some point or shows it's state of mind (fear of painful correction) in one phase, especially at a big trial which comes after all of the "turning the screws" to prepare for - and in thisparticular case this happened in the C phase.  No surprise.  But I am surprised, and disappointed to see the judge rewarding a V score to a dog showing pressure in the work, no matter how correct it was.

If it isn't a rule it should be, IMO.  Doesn't matter who the dog or  handler is - there is usually one in every big trial.  Hard to watch.  And usually the judge will not award a V score to such a performance.

Zahnburg, I would love to learn "something" about making V in any phase as long as the training didn't involve abusing or hurting my dog.    Absolutely.

molly