Are Belgian Malinois replacing German shepherds? - Page 5

Like I said before, price has alot to do with it.  You guys are all pretty much right on.  Look at how popular the GSD is.  There are gazillions of GSDs out there and millions of breeders.  Police departments don't have the time or resources to sift through the garbage to find a good dog.  With Malinois, the percentages are going to be higher for success because most of the breeders out there are still breeding for a working purpose.  Most people out there don't even know what a Malinois is.  If and when they become popular with the mass population, the percentage will slowly go down.

Christopher,

As experienced as you are, I'm sure you can say that not all Malinois are spectacular.  With all the trials that you have been to, even nationals, I'm sure you've seen a Malinois DQ'd because of gunfire. 

Here is my outlook on the up and coming..... for P.D. that are purchasing only the best quality dogs the price for a GSD, dutch, or mal are about the same give or take a few hundred. Not all P.D.  and training programs that provide for the P.D. are capable of affording the "best quality" dogs. I have heard of people even handlers buying a dog for 500 or 600 and keeping them as their k9. In that case the mals are becoming more popular by the day.... (i have heard this scenario 3 times in the past month) because they bite..... I don't think some people are looking at the versatility and quality of the dog! Or someone buying a cheap dog do some foundation bite work on it and selling it as a green dog. Everyone knows a mal will bite so it is easier to make that dog look good. The quality of mals are being diminished just like the gsd. Because they all bite it is easy for people to think they are extreme dogs so they begin to breed hence the crap gene pool developing. Not to mention they are now AKC recognized..... YIKES!!! I have seen ads for family companion and conformation champion mals. I recently saw a mal (from french ring lines) in a near by apt. complex and he said he didn't even work the dog!! Thank god he got it spayed but if breeders are selling to pet homes than that is what they will become. They are on the quck list to Sh!t in the next 10 years. I can almost guarantee that.

PRAGER AND SLAMDUNC.... AMEN!! breeding shouldn't be based on the points in the competitive world! I agree that it should be more so ranked as pass or fail, breed quality or not, rather than judged on a point system. People are breeding dogs that are a bit softer and more eager to please to get the flashy obedience and more control (I believe in a high level of control but you better believe I am not correcting my dog for an immediate out if he decides to nose check the decoy in the balls... to me it's great if my dogs title but I want a real dog because that is what determines my breeding quality dogs)

I think many of us are stating the same things!! Just with different pin points and layouts. A good quality dog is a good quality dog breed aside! Of course their is a bit of pride in the breed we all own because that is the breed we have dedicated so much time, money, and love into whichever we own. That is where what I call breed pride comes in. Fact is I don't believe a good quality mal is better than a good quality gsd or vise versa. Thanks again for everyones perspective on this issue. I really hope that newcomers to each of the breeds decide to pop on in on this topic. And for the sake of the gsd maybe get off the sport fields for a little while and get back to raw dogs that are real and HEALTHY!!!!

Thanks Uglydog, Patriontamanda and Sam Spade.
 We, who breed GSDs, need to go back to basics.
GSD is  WORKING DOG. PERIOD. The rest is harmfull to the breed of GSD. Let's not be "kennel blind" we must learn to see the faults of our own dogs. Who knows them better then we do!? That is a good place to start.  Then learn how to breed them. Apply LMX program to hips where we look at the dogs on the pedigree AND their littermates. But be not hip obsessed and forget about all else in the genetic makeup of a dog.   See the "whole dog". Learn how to dowe tail pedigrees in order to properly compensate for faults of otherwise excellent dogs. Do not double up on a problem or, problem dog back in the pedigree.  Learn how to "triage" pups for breeding hold backs. Before you breed, know the dogs on the pedigree not just by the looks and by how many titles they have, but what are their genetics. And not just phenotype, but also the genotype (again look at the litermates and what the dog produced).  Admit your failures and learn from them.  Make no excuses and try to find reasons for what is happening when you breed two dogs. Yes I am bias I have spend with these dogs 44 years. In Czech and now here. Normally I do  not get out like this, but I think that talking about this will help to my beloved breed.  Also I will help if I can to anybody who wants to learn to breed.
Hans (Prager)
http://www.alpinek9.com

The Problem isnt the dog, or the Breed per se.
Its those in Charge of the Breed.The GSD needs a new Steward to oversee it ceases to become a Working dog. Its not looking good. We all know it.


MAX
"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of Working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs....

'In order to have any chances of success at Exhibitions, breeding must be effected on a large scale; which can only be done in a regular Kennel. But breeding on a large scale and in a Kennel is the ruin of all sound shepherd dog breeding.

'Breeding in quantities must always become a curse to the breeder, because it leads him along the wrong path and deprives him of all real joy in his breeding. Finally, it leads - and this is a further and very real danger for breeder and for the race - to breeding for business considerations only. It follows from the name, that this has nothing more to do with the dog-lover, or with the utility of the dog-race, and not even with SPORT which indeed has only been too often advanced as a cloak for such practices.

'When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers -, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such. There again, we encounter another danger for the race. The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers.'

One day when things fall apart, and man is put back living off the land once more, the dog will regain its instincts.
Breeding will no longer be a business.

Uglydog
I agree that the US and many countries do not have enough regulations.  I know when all of the laws in California and elsewhere were trying to be passed, people were upset.  I was actually seeing some positives.  Atleast if kennels had to be registered and have to go through the ringer, it would cut out many BYBs.  I understand the desire of all who didn't want it.  Every inch you give they take a foot.  Next law would be to ban certain breeds, but that happens in many places all over the US.  Atleast in many countries they compromise witha muzzle law.

Ahhh Chris, the voice of reason is so refreshing.  Here's a different twist that no one will like, how about the idea that the big money show dogs and subsequent support of the modern SV, are ruining the modern day German Shepherd Dog.  Looks have become more important than working temperament as evidenced by the performance at the last Sieger Show in Arlington Hts.  Shouldn't we be blaming the SV for this supposed watering down of the sport?  How many of you have seen the Malinois Korung?  Here is a copy of some of the work from a couple of years ago,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8OruEOXy0g&feature=related  .  It's in slow motion, kind of a pain but you get the gist of the work.  The helper for the majority of the work actually did the front half at the 2005 FMBB World Championships.  Your dog hangs on to Bjorn?  Pretty good.


Point being, when you evaluate the "top" examples of the breed as being "Excellent Select" and recommended for breeding and they can't hang on to the watered down application of a SchH I bite work test, that spells trouble.  I'm not going to get into the debate about Malinois vs. Shepherd because I am a Malinois guy but the point is what the Shepherd has been allowed to become.  I have many friends that are good Shepherd people and have many fine examples of the breed but,,,,,,, they searched far and wide and spent in some cases 10's of thousands of dollars trying to find them.  We can talk about this for days and debate what the Shepherds of yesteryear were all about but this is what we have today.  The breed is suffering and the SV is a big part of the problem.  Something is very wrong when one has to spend, in some cases, in upwards of $4500 to get a confirmation style GSD that down the road has a better chance of mediocre performance in the "sport" that was developed for testing it's temperament than performance excellence.  Helmut Raiser has the right idea with his RSV2000 and I wish him all the best in his endeavors and can only hope to offer my assistance in any way I can here in the States. 


Chris, I don't agree with you on much but on this one I'm 100% behind you, or in front of you depending on your angle.  Look at the stats over recent years, in competition where varieties of breeds are accepted, the Malinois has been dominant.  And if one wants to make the argument that the first Schutzhund tests were pass/fail and not scored, let's compare the demands of the Korung.  I don't know the exact statistics of how many Malinois actually pass the test each year in Germany but, I know it is very few.  How many have we had imported here into the U.S., I think 3 total?  Someone else may have the exact amount but I think it's right around that number.


In closing I'm reminded of one of my favorite motivational quotes over the years, not sure who said it, probably Vince Lombardi, but it goes something like this, "Don't confuse effort with accomplishment".

How many true quality dogs go to waste? (GSD or BM)  How many of you have bred really high quality strong working dogs that you get back, because the people who bought them just couldn't handle them? What happens to these dogs?   How many really tough working dogs can be bred in this country (USA) and actually be placed in an environment suitable to the breeding for which they were intended?  This is a small specialized site where dog people gather, but even many of the these people couldn't handle the type of dog that has been discussed here.  I appreciate a really strong dog.  I know what that entails.  But are there enough strong working dog people out there to take these dogs?  I'd be interested in hearing from  working dog breeders about their experiences.     DCW

Phil
I've seen the point made with Chris before on your claim that the Malinois have dominated.  The problem i have with that statement is that the event you take into consideration don't often contain the top GSDs.  The Top GSD handlers concentrate more on the WUSV,  which does not contain Malinois. 
I was upset when USA made the national into a GSD only event. 

Yes Mr. Spade I agree, however, since the entry is not breed specific one can't blame the breed.  The only way to get a true comparison is to have an equal playing field.  I know the SV will never promote the FCI Championship because technically it is not SchH, but IPO, and the DVG Meisterschaft is VPG and an all breed working organization without concern for conformation, so this discussion/argument will never really have an end but you have to admit that there is a problem.  We know that the first step to correcting a problem is admitting that there is one, and like I mentioned, I think Helmut Raiser is on the right track and I wish him well.