Are Belgian Malinois replacing German shepherds? - Page 4

Prager.... very well said!!! I agree 100% but I feel the best way to imprint the bite foundation is in prey and then add physical and environmental pressure in prey and then transition to defense. Some dogs move faster than others obviously but I have seen both dutch and mals at young ages (as well as gsd's) that aren't afraid of a real confrontation and prefer the man over any piece of equipment. My point was that the malinois is not a better quality dog.... I can't even say that I have an opinion on what is the better quality working dog because there are great examples of each breed that are proof of high drive (defense and prey) and courage. I think each can get the job done but it is all a personal interest. I personally don't enjoy the hair of the gsd. I own and breed d.s. but I don't think they are the best looking or best sized dogs like the gsd. The mal I am quite impartial too in general but I have seen some great ones that I would allow into my family. My point being is that as long as there are different desires for each person there will be different breeds (which I genuinely appreciate because there is no one BEST dog) for look, for drives, for maintenance, etc. My issue is with people that own gsd's with the intention to breed...... or any breed in that case...... and they won't see their dog for what it truly is compared to the best of the best of the best of the breed.... if it can't hang with them don't breed them!!! I see way too many people who think that their gsd's are just the best because of what the gsd use to be.... they can't even acknowledge what the general gsd population has become, and it may be possible that their dog does not have the courage, drive, stamina, health, etc. that everyone who grew up with them would see and imagines when they hear "gsd."  I don't like arrogant people who say my dog is better than yours and my breed goes above and beyond. Their are crappy gsd's and their are outstanding ones..... their are crappy d.s and mals and their are outstanding ones. To each their own and that is the beauty of having these dogs to choose from. Just something for everyone to think about. I find it quite disturbing when one makes such a general comment about a specific breed without even mentioning the exceptions in that breed. Great topic again everyone. Glad most can keep it civilized and make it a learning thread. Now back to my questions..... what do P.D. 's look for in their police k9's??


(this is a to be continued piece from my previous post)   So it makes me question are people just too inexperienced to handle these dogs? Is the expectation of hard and real dogs been lowered for police k9's?

What are the desirable traits and are their different ones for each breed you choose if you work with a variety??

My previous message  PRAGER) got cut out here is the rest:
......defensive situation in prey and mostly perform well. (BM). That does not mean  that the capitalized statemant above is not true and aplicable to these dogs who perform their defense work in prey. True K9 needs to have inherited courage which is part of the defense drive. This inherited courage needs to be developed through proper training and development of  defense drive.
 Malinois pro: More consistent, cheaper, faster ,deal with heat well, flying nicely through the air.
 Malinois con: too much drive to the fault (Often bite first look later), Mostly trasined in prey only and bred for prey , samll deterrent effect to uninformed public.
GSD pro: Highly trainable, prey : defense is in balance in quality GSD,high deterrent effect, more level headed, deals with cold better and can take the hot weather as well.
GSD con: Inconsitent in quality, Higher price for quality dogs, more health issues in many but not all lines.
 
BM fad will go away if we breed for work and not sport or show. GSD is a versatile breed we must keep that way. breed for specific purpose destroys German Shepherd.
See the whole picture!
 Hans (Prager)
http://wwwalpinek9.com  

Did Mr. Peabody just join the Pedigree Database and take me for a trip in The Way Back Machine? This is the same rhetoric that GSD fanciers have been saying about the Malinois for the last 20 years. Nothing new. I’m sure there are still some old timers somewhere lamenting the demise of the Airedale and waiting for this GSD fad to end.

I do agree with much your assessment of prey and defense but have no idea where you came up with the idea that Malinois are working pure prey and thus lack courage. That’s a huge leap and would love to see your evidence or hear about your personal experiences that lead you to believe that Malinois lack courage. Your only evidence seems to be that Malinois are “high flyers”. Maybe they “fly” be cause they can.

If the Malinois were so bad they would not be able to do police work, yet every year, while the work becomes more demanding, the percentage of Malinois in both police and military continues to grow. Why? Are the directors of these programs just not as smart or dog savvy as you? I doubt that. The answer may be that they simply find higher success rates with Malinois than they do with GSDs.

This same quest for success is seen in the sport dog world. People are gravitating to the Malinois because they are successful. Look at the results of national and international IPO/Sch trials in the past 10 years. Whenever the GSDs and the Malinois are on the same field, the odds are greatly in favor of the Malinois leaving with the trophies. Let’s not even talk about other sports! The GSD is not even seen. The breed once dominated frenchring. What happen there? Oh I know what happened. A little brown dog that was a “fad” came in and kicked ass….30 years ago…..and never stopped. NVBK has NEVER had a GSD be able to title in that program. And where are the winning GSDs in PSA, agility, flyball, dock diving, obedience or any other dog sport?

A fad breed has never had this level of success. Did Dobies or Rotts ever outnumber GSDs for police and military? Did Dobies or Rotts ever win the FCI championships? People will stick to the best dog for the job. And until the GSD breeders stop putting emphasis on side gait and running in left circles, this “fad” will most likely continue.

A good dog mali or GSD should be able to switch from prey to defense instantly.   My police K9 a GSD will chase someone in prey.  Prey makes for speed.  If the dog is taught that anything moving is prey it will pursue it with all out speed.  This is not only true for Police work - chasing a bad guy but for SchH as well.  The dog can be taught that even someone running straight at them attacking is prey - so you get intense speed.  This can be taught for the courage test in SchH as well.  Even though the decoy is running straight at the dog the dog views the fast moves prey.  Once  the fight starts the dog switches into fight drive or defense drive.

Prager, you are correct that in prey the dog does not recognize danger, that is where the speed comes from.  All of the mali's I work with will switch in a heartbeat just like a GSD.  They are much more reactive than GSD's and are quicker to bite if I can generalize.  My GSD is loaded in prey, he has enough prey drive for 2 mali's, but he also has a very serious civil side and has a ton of defense also.   

Is the expectation of hard and real dogs been lowered for police k9's?

What are the desirable traits and are their different ones for each breed you choose if you work with a variety??


No, we still want "real dogs".  We want hard dogs loaded with drive.  We sometimes have to look a little harder and search several vendors to find suitable dogs.  We  look for confident, high drive dogs with both prey and defense with natural civil aggression.  We test for environmental issues, gun sureness and how the dog reacts to a decoy with no equipment, a bite suit and a  sleeve.  We test prey drive, hunt drive and defense drive.  The traits are the same for all the dogs we look at.  We simply choose the best dog whether it's a dutch, mali or GSD.  Last month I went to help select dogs and several mali's and a dutch Shepherd were available no GSD's.   We chose a very nice mali.  Super fast, bites full and hard and is loaded in prey and defense.  Very social as well.  Between my PD and a neighboring agency we have added / replaced  8 dogs in the past 8 months.  4 GSD's, 3 mali's and 1 Dutch Shepherd.  We simply chose the best dog.  although 2 handlers wanted mali's.  They are all really good dogs, naturally I think mine is the best. 

JMO,

Jim

Huh this is fun!
 I fully agree with you Slamdunc.,
Ant to Christopher;
 We are talking here about police work and not about sport right?
Malinois are more popular with police because they are cheeper and more consistent than GSD not better then quality GSD. I have said that.
 Malinois are performing well in sport because sport forces competitors to train in prey.  Thus the emphasis is on prey in breeding too. And BM are top sport dogs and because of their high pre drive do in sport s well.
GSD is originally not a "sport" dog but a "working" dog. Competitivnes of the Sport is ruining the versatility of the GSD breed . Leads to breeding inferior dogs in courage, hips and health in general ;  only if they can do well for 4 years oif their life in sport.  That is the(!) reason as someone above here said German police is turning away  from  GSD in favor of BM. That is true thanks to specialized training and breeding of GSDs for sport,... thus in prey. Courage as  part of defensive drive is totaly unimportant in breeding of sport dogs today. I remember ( yes I am an oldtimer) old time GSDs in Czech and DDR and they are far cry from  what the prey driven dogs are today.
Max von Stephanitz said: Breeding GSD for sport will at first lead to improvment of the breed, but after three genrations it will lead to certain deterioration.
 Remember SchH  was originally established as  a test for dog's suitability to be bred and not for a compentition. 
 This is why GSD is loosing ground to BM. However old style quality GSD is always better for police work then BM.
Hans (Prager)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Actually, I don't see mali's as being more popular with police Dept's over GSD's yet.  I also don't see mali's as a fad, they are good working dogs that haven't been ruined  by over breeding and conformation shows.  Perhaps that will happen to the mali's like the GSD's and labs, but I hope it takes a long time. 

As for cost, we pay the same for a mali, GSD or Dutch Shepherd.  Mali's are no cheaper for us.  I know that our special forces are using malis primarily and many are being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan.  That can make mali's sparse at times when we look for dogs. 

Jim

We are talking here about police work and not about sport right?
I’m talking about all work and sport. The dog makes no distinction.

Malinois are more popular with police because they are cheeper and more consistent than GSD
That may or may not be true. But if it is true isn’t cheep and consistent a good thing? Police are not just leaving the GSD on a whim. And this a good reason to do so.

Competitivnes of the Sport is ruining the versatility of the GSD breed . Leads to breeding inferior dogs in courage, hips and health in general ; only if they can do well for 4 years oif their life in sport. That is the(!) reason as someone above here said German police is turning away from GSD in favor of BM.

So the German Police are turning to the Malinois because they have more courage, good hips and better health.
If sport is causing all of these problems then why doesn’t the Malinois suffer? The Malinois is as much involved in sport as the GSD.

Remember SchH was originally established as a test for dog's suitability to be bred and not for a compentition.

If it was a breed test then why are there points? Why are placements awarded? Why aren’t the dogs just given a critique and assigned a number that corresponds to a trait like the DDR breedtest? If schutzhund was a breed test then why is there also a breed test?

However old style quality GSD is always better for police work then BM.

Maybe the “old-style” Malinois is better than the “old-style” GSD too.

I agree with Slamdunc, Christopher and Prager, You are all three making some wonderful points about the current situation of the German Shepherd. You all three are very knowledgable in the working aspect of the German Shepherd, this is evident by your dialogue. So there are some minor differences, but the main thing is that the points you three are making are grounded in reality. I just wish that many many others that want to learn about what's WRONG with the German Shepherd, and the status of the dog today from a practical point will read your three posts, SLOWLY !and digest what you are saying. Most important, people should take heed to what is being said by you three because you are speaking from a working perspective about a working dog, and the demise of the working dog that is in progress. Bravo to all three of you!!!
PatroitAmanda, I have the same peeves as you but I guess everybody knows that on this forum!!(smile)

The one thing that is bringing GSD to its knees is the fact that it is one of the most popular breeds in the word. Once you start breeding for number rather than quality shit happens. Let Mali take the place and watch what will happen.

So the German Police are turning to the Malinois because they have more courage, good hips and better health.
If sport is causing all of these problems then why doesn’t the Malinois suffer? The Malinois is as much involved in sport as the GSD.

KNPV is Nothing like Schutzhund and is actually used to train Police dogs, much like SchH once did, decades ago. 
A short academy for the KNPV dogs after being certed and titled is all.   KNPV is nothing Like Schutzhund, there are no showline Pigs being passed, the test hasnt been compromised.
The dogs certed in KNPV, including GSDs, are generally a much Harder dog.

Remember SchH was originally established as a test for dog's suitability to be bred and not for a compentition.
And it was PASS/FAIL.   No Points were ever given out.
There were no  ribbons, money, or prizes. It was a cooperative to gain insight of a dogs gentics for breeding and work. The Test was infinately more diverse with high scaled wall Jumps, gunfire, real stick hits ie A True Working Test..


If it was a breed test then why are there points?
For SPORT. Money and recognition. Not for the breed. The Test was watered down. Fact.


Why are placements awarded?
Same, see above. Money and recognition FOR money for the Sport.


Why aren’t the dogs just given a critique and assigned a number that corresponds to a trait like the DDR breedtest? If schutzhund was a breed test then why is there also a breed test?
SchH WAS a Working ability test, now its a Competition with big dollars at stake. Its also been watered down, beyond recognition.
It isnt really about working ability. The fact there are still many good dogs competing is besides the point. There are lots of pigs too.

See the old SchH videos of old on Youtube, or KNPV for that matter, and youll see what and why the breed is suffering and in so many directions. Max did everything possible to Prevent this from happening. Leave man to his own devices....