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by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 08:06
VKGSD
I am guessing that a spinal x ray wouldn't have the dog curled up like a cat, but in a position that would be natural to the spine, but I don't know. If the x ray showed a little more of the anatomy, we could see.
I guess I should refer to West German showlines in terms of more defined arching or roaching. In the UK if you look at any SL breeder you will be seeing a defined arched back, and this copies the German showlines. Yes, these are the dogs being shown, but I can only imagine that most littermates do have similar construction. The part I don't like with the WG showlines is that often you will see a pronounced 'hinge' in the area of the spine that I am referring to in respect of your dog's xray, you can see it very clearly in movement. I am sorry your dog has TVS, but hopefully this can be fixed at some point and give him a normal quality of life as Hexe says.
Ruger1 I have seen a few WGSL in the UK with a relatively straight back, but this seems to be an exception, and it would seem the arch is 'desirable' because that follows the typical construction of VA dogs in Germany which is perceived to be correct.
Trixx, nice topline. We don't tend to see this in UK (WG) showline at all, and it is definitely not bred for. I am guessing you must have Am showlines? A few people here do breed a more moderate dog, but these are considered 'Middle of the Road', and they don't tend to do that well in the show ring sadly, even though IMO they far better fit the 'standard' (which seems to be as fluid as anybody wants it to be) than do the WG. An exciting trend (for me) is that some breeders are moderating construction by SLXWL breeding, and some of the results are very very nice, but it's early days on that front.
I agree that form follows function, except for the fact that we then go and tinker with form, resulting in something which is not conducive to function. The SL GSD form has been changed to promote the (useless) function of gaiting. If the form were to fit the function of herding and trotting you would have straight backs like the other herding breeds. Hexe, I agree 'kyphosis' is probably not the description to fit the change in the skeleton of the GSD, but there is certainly change there. A comparison of VKGSD's x-ray with a dog with an obviously straight back would be interesting.
I believe that the angulation (and following body shape) was also believed by the Martin brothers to increase 'push' from the rear to enhance the flying gait. Ironically another study in Germany has established that in fact this movement is dictated by the front of the dog, and not 'push' from the rear. Very interesting thread.
I am guessing that a spinal x ray wouldn't have the dog curled up like a cat, but in a position that would be natural to the spine, but I don't know. If the x ray showed a little more of the anatomy, we could see.
I guess I should refer to West German showlines in terms of more defined arching or roaching. In the UK if you look at any SL breeder you will be seeing a defined arched back, and this copies the German showlines. Yes, these are the dogs being shown, but I can only imagine that most littermates do have similar construction. The part I don't like with the WG showlines is that often you will see a pronounced 'hinge' in the area of the spine that I am referring to in respect of your dog's xray, you can see it very clearly in movement. I am sorry your dog has TVS, but hopefully this can be fixed at some point and give him a normal quality of life as Hexe says.
Ruger1 I have seen a few WGSL in the UK with a relatively straight back, but this seems to be an exception, and it would seem the arch is 'desirable' because that follows the typical construction of VA dogs in Germany which is perceived to be correct.
Trixx, nice topline. We don't tend to see this in UK (WG) showline at all, and it is definitely not bred for. I am guessing you must have Am showlines? A few people here do breed a more moderate dog, but these are considered 'Middle of the Road', and they don't tend to do that well in the show ring sadly, even though IMO they far better fit the 'standard' (which seems to be as fluid as anybody wants it to be) than do the WG. An exciting trend (for me) is that some breeders are moderating construction by SLXWL breeding, and some of the results are very very nice, but it's early days on that front.
I agree that form follows function, except for the fact that we then go and tinker with form, resulting in something which is not conducive to function. The SL GSD form has been changed to promote the (useless) function of gaiting. If the form were to fit the function of herding and trotting you would have straight backs like the other herding breeds. Hexe, I agree 'kyphosis' is probably not the description to fit the change in the skeleton of the GSD, but there is certainly change there. A comparison of VKGSD's x-ray with a dog with an obviously straight back would be interesting.
I believe that the angulation (and following body shape) was also believed by the Martin brothers to increase 'push' from the rear to enhance the flying gait. Ironically another study in Germany has established that in fact this movement is dictated by the front of the dog, and not 'push' from the rear. Very interesting thread.
by Abby Normal on 13 June 2011 - 08:06
VKGSD
I am guessing that a spinal x ray wouldn't have the dog curled up like a cat, but in a position that would be natural to the spine, but I don't know. If the x ray showed a little more of the anatomy, we could see.
I guess I should refer to West German showlines in terms of more defined arching or roaching. In the UK if you look at any SL breeder you will be seeing a defined arched back, and this copies the German showlines. Yes, these are the dogs being shown, but I can only imagine that most littermates do have similar construction. The part I don't like with the WG showlines is that often you will see a pronounced 'hinge' in the area of the spine that I am referring to in respect of your dog's xray, you can see it very clearly in movement. I am sorry your dog has TVS, but hopefully this can be fixed at some point and give him a normal quality of life as Hexe says.
Ruger1 I have seen a few WGSL in the UK with a relatively straight back, but this seems to be an exception, and it would seem the arch is 'desirable' because that follows the typical construction of VA dogs in Germany which is perceived to be correct.
Trixx, nice topline. We don't tend to see this in UK (WG) showline at all, and it is definitely not bred for. I am guessing you must have Am showlines? A few people here do breed a more moderate dog, but these are considered 'Middle of the Road', and they don't tend to do that well in the show ring sadly, even though IMO they far better fit the 'standard' (which seems to be as fluid as anybody wants it to be) than do the WG. An exciting trend (for me) is that some breeders are moderating construction by SLXWL breeding, and some of the results are very very nice, but it's early days on that front.
I agree that form follows function, except for the fact that we then go and tinker with form, resulting in something which is not conducive to function. The SL GSD form has been changed to promote the (useless) function of gaiting. If the form were to fit the function of herding and trotting you would have straight backs like the other herding breeds. Hexe, I agree 'kyphosis' is probably not the description to fit the change in the skeleton of the GSD, but there is certainly change there. A comparison of VKGSD's x-ray with a dog with an obviously straight back would be interesting.
I believe that the angulation (and following body shape) was also believed by the Martin brothers to increase 'push' from the rear to enhance the flying gait. Ironically another study in Germany has established that in fact this movement is dictated by the front of the dog, and not 'push' from the rear. Very interesting thread.
I am guessing that a spinal x ray wouldn't have the dog curled up like a cat, but in a position that would be natural to the spine, but I don't know. If the x ray showed a little more of the anatomy, we could see.
I guess I should refer to West German showlines in terms of more defined arching or roaching. In the UK if you look at any SL breeder you will be seeing a defined arched back, and this copies the German showlines. Yes, these are the dogs being shown, but I can only imagine that most littermates do have similar construction. The part I don't like with the WG showlines is that often you will see a pronounced 'hinge' in the area of the spine that I am referring to in respect of your dog's xray, you can see it very clearly in movement. I am sorry your dog has TVS, but hopefully this can be fixed at some point and give him a normal quality of life as Hexe says.
Ruger1 I have seen a few WGSL in the UK with a relatively straight back, but this seems to be an exception, and it would seem the arch is 'desirable' because that follows the typical construction of VA dogs in Germany which is perceived to be correct.
Trixx, nice topline. We don't tend to see this in UK (WG) showline at all, and it is definitely not bred for. I am guessing you must have Am showlines? A few people here do breed a more moderate dog, but these are considered 'Middle of the Road', and they don't tend to do that well in the show ring sadly, even though IMO they far better fit the 'standard' (which seems to be as fluid as anybody wants it to be) than do the WG. An exciting trend (for me) is that some breeders are moderating construction by SLXWL breeding, and some of the results are very very nice, but it's early days on that front.
I agree that form follows function, except for the fact that we then go and tinker with form, resulting in something which is not conducive to function. The SL GSD form has been changed to promote the (useless) function of gaiting. If the form were to fit the function of herding and trotting you would have straight backs like the other herding breeds. Hexe, I agree 'kyphosis' is probably not the description to fit the change in the skeleton of the GSD, but there is certainly change there. A comparison of VKGSD's x-ray with a dog with an obviously straight back would be interesting.
I believe that the angulation (and following body shape) was also believed by the Martin brothers to increase 'push' from the rear to enhance the flying gait. Ironically another study in Germany has established that in fact this movement is dictated by the front of the dog, and not 'push' from the rear. Very interesting thread.
by steve1 on 13 June 2011 - 08:06
No where other than on this Forum have i heard so often that German Shepherds are still related to Wolves.
It is now 100 years since the German Shepherd dog evolved, and even then it did not evolve directly or otherwise from the Wolf.
The common factor is that Dogs and Wolves and Coyotes etc are Cannis Lupus, and thats as near as it gets in this day and age,
Dogs were around 1000's of years ago, they are not a modern species evolving recently from Wolves as some think, recently means a few 100 years
Okay they look a little like a Wolf but a Husky looks even more like a Wolf than a G.S does, However i guess it makes some of you Guys happy to think the way you do, but i have never heard it mentioned this side of the Water, to us they are Dogs of a breed simply that and we do not compare them to any other animal
Steve1
It is now 100 years since the German Shepherd dog evolved, and even then it did not evolve directly or otherwise from the Wolf.
The common factor is that Dogs and Wolves and Coyotes etc are Cannis Lupus, and thats as near as it gets in this day and age,
Dogs were around 1000's of years ago, they are not a modern species evolving recently from Wolves as some think, recently means a few 100 years
Okay they look a little like a Wolf but a Husky looks even more like a Wolf than a G.S does, However i guess it makes some of you Guys happy to think the way you do, but i have never heard it mentioned this side of the Water, to us they are Dogs of a breed simply that and we do not compare them to any other animal
Steve1
by pod on 13 June 2011 - 11:06
Steve, there is now a plathora of evidence to confirm the origins of the domestic dog. The original split was ~12,000 - 15,000 years ago and through that time there has been backcrossing in the origins of some landraces/breeds (including the GSD). The dog is a direct descendant of the wolf but not the coyote (Canis latrans), though they can still interbreed being of the same genus.
Not really sure why it would be significant if the GSD and wolf were genetically miles apart anyway. It's function we are discussing here and the original form of the GSD ancestral dogs did indeed have a wolf type form appropriate for their function. Other breeds of very different form that also share a haplotype with the wolf (indicating a recent {centuries} backcross) include the Golden Retriever, Mexican Hairless, Bulldog, and Toy Poodle.
The obsession with high wither, backline, angulation and long stride, in the mistaken belief that, if-a-little-is-good-more-must-be-better, has made the GSD into a caricature of a once noble dog of construction suited to function, achieved by means of selection actually based on function, not aesthetics.
Not really sure why it would be significant if the GSD and wolf were genetically miles apart anyway. It's function we are discussing here and the original form of the GSD ancestral dogs did indeed have a wolf type form appropriate for their function. Other breeds of very different form that also share a haplotype with the wolf (indicating a recent {centuries} backcross) include the Golden Retriever, Mexican Hairless, Bulldog, and Toy Poodle.
The obsession with high wither, backline, angulation and long stride, in the mistaken belief that, if-a-little-is-good-more-must-be-better, has made the GSD into a caricature of a once noble dog of construction suited to function, achieved by means of selection actually based on function, not aesthetics.
by apoArmani on 13 June 2011 - 11:06
@Sunsilver; Thank you for your advise!!
I will stick with my beliefs and whilst you know so much about the Martins, I knew them personaly...especially Walter!
Thing is FORM DOES FOLLOW FUNCTION!! in every moving thing (LIVING OR MECHANICAL even electronic).
The wolf and wolf like relatives have very very little to do with the modern dog let alone the German Shepherd!
I will stick with my beliefs and whilst you know so much about the Martins, I knew them personaly...especially Walter!
Thing is FORM DOES FOLLOW FUNCTION!! in every moving thing (LIVING OR MECHANICAL even electronic).
The wolf and wolf like relatives have very very little to do with the modern dog let alone the German Shepherd!
by Sunsilver on 13 June 2011 - 11:06
Although this discussion is about function, I would like to point out that geneticists have found the dog and wolf are so closely related they are actually the same species. The dog has been re-classified as Canis lupus, var. familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis
And there is pretty good proof that some of the GSD foundation dogs WERE wolves:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071212233631/http:/www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm
Subsequent editions of Stephanitz's book were edited to remove references to the wolf ancestry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis
And there is pretty good proof that some of the GSD foundation dogs WERE wolves:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071212233631/http:/www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm
Subsequent editions of Stephanitz's book were edited to remove references to the wolf ancestry.
by VKGSDs on 13 June 2011 - 12:06
What would a perfectly straight back accomplish as far as function? I don't mind a gentle curve. To me the most important thing is to not have any extremes and to have a balanced dog. Even if the back is strong, straight, and level, if the front and rear are not balanced...no thank you. I am seeing more and more working line dogs that IMO look like the extreme type WG show line dogs. It is always funny to me that the WG show line dogs are criticized based on this exaggerated type, yet whenever people put up an example of a beautiful (conformation-wise) working line dog it often to me looks like the more extreme show line dogs. Regardless of line I prefer a straighter back (doesn't have to be perfectly straight or perfectly leve) and the dog MUST have good balance in the front and rear. My best mover (IMO) is so far my female working line - the dog in my avatar - who does have a straight, level back and according to today's interpretation of the standard probably lacks angulation in the front and rear but it doesn't matter because she is so beautifully balanced. Her movement is effortless and efficient. My working line puppy I believe will be balanced as he matures (right now he's growing and all leg!) but he has more angulation on both ends. My show line male (the one with the TVS) is indeed a more moderate show line for today but also nicely balanced. His movement suffers because of the TVS (gives him somewhat of a stilted gait, he cannot use full power in the rear and because he is asymmetrical the gait sort of gets cut short on one side).
(As an aside, thank you for the well wishes re. the TVS but unfortunately this condition is not fixable because it effects the spine and pelvis not being anatomically correct.)
I wish I had a spine x-ray of my working line female for your comparison.
(As an aside, thank you for the well wishes re. the TVS but unfortunately this condition is not fixable because it effects the spine and pelvis not being anatomically correct.)
I wish I had a spine x-ray of my working line female for your comparison.
by ggturner on 13 June 2011 - 12:06
Very true that dogs are a sub species of gray wolves (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-origin-of-dogs).
The following article is on the canine genome. The section titled "Genetics of Morphology" talks about differences in skeletal structures in dogs: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full . There is still so much that geneticists do not understand with regard to how traits are controlled and passed on to offspring.
The following article is on the canine genome. The section titled "Genetics of Morphology" talks about differences in skeletal structures in dogs: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full . There is still so much that geneticists do not understand with regard to how traits are controlled and passed on to offspring.
by ggturner on 13 June 2011 - 13:06
VKGSDs--nice looking dog! Here's my WL male. He has a straighter back:
by apoArmani on 13 June 2011 - 15:06
Lets look at this another way; We (Humans), are decendents of the APE!!!
Genetics as we all know is a very complex subject of GIGANTIC proportions. Fact is though - the term throw-back is very common!!!
Whilst we as HUMANS have evolved from the ape and hence would have had many of their (apes) anatomical and the skeletal/orthopedic frame characteristics, the wolf and dog can have the same...think about it!!!
We have in humans a proven tendancy to do extraordinary things and at times revert to jungle animals!!!
It doesnt make it right...nor the fact that with our genetic manipulations have created so many chemicals to distroy and cofuse or genetic make-up and maybe also to the extent where we are experiencing in HUMANS throwing-back to some of our ancestors even to the skeletal/orthopedic abnormalities...so do dogs!!!
We have to do better!!!
Genetics as we all know is a very complex subject of GIGANTIC proportions. Fact is though - the term throw-back is very common!!!
Whilst we as HUMANS have evolved from the ape and hence would have had many of their (apes) anatomical and the skeletal/orthopedic frame characteristics, the wolf and dog can have the same...think about it!!!
We have in humans a proven tendancy to do extraordinary things and at times revert to jungle animals!!!
It doesnt make it right...nor the fact that with our genetic manipulations have created so many chemicals to distroy and cofuse or genetic make-up and maybe also to the extent where we are experiencing in HUMANS throwing-back to some of our ancestors even to the skeletal/orthopedic abnormalities...so do dogs!!!
We have to do better!!!
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