Are Belgian Malinois replacing German shepherds? - Page 3

 From my own personal dealings with the 2 breeds, I will ALWAYS take a shepherd over a Mal any day of the week. I have a 5.5 month old malil pup that will be trained for police work and boy is he STUBBORN!!! The Shepherds pick up quick and so do the mals, but for different purposes. My shepherds genuinely want to be with me and please me. The mali is out for himself and whatever he can sink his teeth into. He knows what's expected of him on certain things, like biting MY leg. I don't care if he chomps on my friends legs, and they know that before they take him out to play. It's Nay, nay, nay, NAY!!! He's gotten much better and has a grip like you wouldn't believe. I whelped his litter for one of the officers in the county where I used to live... he was always the first at everything, biggest, bossiest, mouthiest. He absolutely adores people and likes nothing better then to cuddle, for a split second anyways. Attention span of a gnat.

The Shepherds on the other hand, love to bite, are mali nuts for their ball, BUT they can turn it off and focus for more then 1/100th of a second. the puppies I only have to say nay or nine a half a dozen times or so and they get it. Occasionally I'll have one little bugger that just won't quit. But for the most part don't take bites like the mals. It's hard to explain. I raised a litter of mals and shepherds that were only about a week apart in age... last minute favor for my friend with the mals, but they are VERY different.

From talking to different people in different departments I think budget is a factor and also ego. Yes mals are fast and they look good on a suit, but throw that toy over a cliff.... Lol. A lot of the handlers that specifically requested mals are going back to shepherds.

Melissa

When I hear this topic it confuses me.... I think that each breed has its strengths and weaknesses and definately each breed doesn't speak for the individual dog. From talking to many people in Illinois (my area) from Berwyn and Chicago to the suburban areas I have noticed many people switching breeds. A facility near me that has only used GSD's and has promised to has confided in a friend of mine about possibly switching.... her reason being that good quality gsd are too expensive and she must have them shipped over seas, they are always a crap shot and some not quality work or health. She has swore to never use the malinois because she just dislikes them but has contemplated switching to the Dutch shepherd. Of course budget has alot to do with it but I think like most of us we would like to eliminate our chances of a loss on $$ and time. The fact is that with the overpopulation of GSD's out there it has completely screwed the gene pools. They are watered down. There are definately great ones out there!!(it takes lots of time to find them or really good connections) But if yout think about the population of both the GSD and the Mal it is clear that their is a higher percentage in the Mal world that are less watered down and ready to work compared to the percentage of the GSD population. I personally do not care for the Mal's myself, ONLY because I need a dog that is going to be able to live at home with me. Some people can live with that high level of energy all of the time but I can not! I have also heard and seen malinois that are working machines on the field but are calm and collective in the house. I personally do not enjoy most GSD quality of work either, I have seen VERY few who are high energy, athletic, and agile dogs who commit 100% to a bite. I have seen plenty of issues with them and not to even mention the health. When people say that a dutch or a mal are just not big enough to do the damage necessary that is just a load of poopie because from what I have seen as a gsd primary biting style is to bite (full if your lucky) and to pull all of its weight to the ground, yes that may be effective in dragging him to the ground and could definately end the fight (which may be your preferance, it is not mine) but I like a dog who really wants to hurt the man..... most of the mals and dutchies that I see continue pushing further in, those are the BONE CRUSHERS!! 60-70lb dogs breaking arms, tearing ligiments, etc. Those are the dogs I like. I would not say the breed is replacing because the better working quality but again to eliminate complications down the line whether it be health, too long to train, etc.

For people who say that mali's are all prey that is also poopie..... I think that is what makes them so much easier to train is that they have this huge head on them (metophorically speaking) thinking they can never be hurt and they are just going to destroy this guy that it never even crosses their mind that they may get hurt. I have seen plenty that are very civil and enjoy the fight. They may not out as fast or as clean, they may give you a run for your money if you try to pushing their buttons (which I think is fair... I don't see why any dog should tolerate improper corrections... we have all had our times of frustration when we gave that unfair correction) but the majority of the people that I have spoke with down south, northern areas, and midwest regions from P.D. and military programs (for any breed of which they are using) only want the most dominant dog, the independent thinker who challenges the man (whether handler or not), the dog that wants to bite everything and all the time!! So it makes me question are people just too inexperienced to handle these dogs? Is the expectation of hard and real dogs been lowered for police k9's? Those traits listed as des

it cut off.....

those traits listed as desirable are still desirable traits but just depends on the specific handler and P.D. I do believe that people want these types of dogs.... I hear it all of the time but the reality is that most people are unable to handle and train these types (I say types because again it can be seen in any breed just appears more often in dutch's and mal's) of dogs. That is why so many great breeders get back awesome dogs.... and what do they do, resell or replenish the breeding stock. I have actually had someone tell me that if they sold a dog to a few different P.D. and the dog was returned each time because the dog was "too much" for them than that dog will not be placed but will live as a stud. I am just dying to hear more on this topic! Thanks for posting and have fun training! :)

Melba-- Yes mals are fast and they look good on a suit, but throw that toy over a cliff.... ----I heard that one to!!! They are so ball crazy if you throw the ball off a bridge they will go over vs a gsd will look at you and say "are you serious"---"gsd are thinkers and mali are doers"--I heard that one from another poster awhile back on one of my first post ever placed.

 Patriot Amanda, I agree.

Although my area has been replacing GSD's with  Mals and Dutchies-they all go home with their families and are wonderful off duty. It's how they are trained and raised

Picture of recently retired Mal  Yarmouth Pd K-9 Kobi at a fund-raiser.

Katrina

For anyone to make such generalized statements tells me that they havent worked with all three breeds much.... if at all.

There are good and bad dogs in all breeds. To say that Malis arent thinkers or that GSDs dont have the same drive shows inexperience. To people who actually WORK dogs day in and day out....a good dog is a good dog no matter what he or she is.

We all have our preferences and there are little differences common to each breed. For me personally a great Mali fits me best but I will take a Dutchie or GSD in a heartbeat if it works.

 INDIANA- GSD's all the way! I recently saw them chase down a "perp" that dog worked that guy over, although he deserved it, wrecked 3 police cars, and hit a house, on my street!

We have working line shepherds in our area - both long-haired and stock coat. We had a half GSD/half malinois but he got shot by a rookie cop. They are all dark-colored dogs - not the pretty type that turns heads but that's not what's needed. The dark-faced dogs that look more wolfish tend to be more menacing - and as police k-9s go, it has its benfits. You want the wrong people to feel more afraid.

Quality(!) German Shepherd is not replaceble by BM. The current fad of BM stims from the problem stimming from the fact that there are many Geman Shepherds which are not  of the quality  which is necessary to perform the police training and work.  However that said quality GSD which is well trained is always better and more reliable K9 then any other breed. Also Malinois are generally  not suitable for family environmant in most instances. 
 For reasons described below I believe that BM popularity is just a fad which will go away with availability of proper qulity GSDs. Even so Malinois are cheaper and more consistant  then GSD in general their performance is psycholgicaly based on the wrong instinct.  Malinois look great flying through the air too, but that is also not without  a problems. It  all stims from the reason why  the dogs work/ bite. There is a difference in bite training and basic biting instincts  between  a Maliois and German Shepherd and that will evetually lead to demise of popularity  of a Malinois, just like in times ago it let to such demise of Rottweilers (where are they?), Dobermanas, Boxers (in 50s) Erdails....
Here is the reason.
 Dogs bite (mainly) for two reasons; prey and defense drive. (there are other reasons for biting like sexual i.e fight for rights to breed and so on. But that is not an issue which is a part of personal protection / K9 training.)
Defense instinct is more important for us then prey instinct because it enables the dog to protect him self, his territory, his young ones and his/her's pack members = you, his master. This is< I believe, why the cave man got a dog and most people have dogs for thousands of years until now. Even hunting dog is walued for his protectivnes if his master is in trouble. Prey drive does not do that! Prey drive enables the dog to hunt for food. In that mode the dog does not(!!!) recognize danger and if he is strictly prey driven and prey trained dog (most Malinois), then he will fail in protection task the moment he recognizes danger. Prey drive is mostly triggered by motion and need to kill it's prey for food (regardless of if it is moving or not). Prey part of a protection is easilly identified by "flying" dogs (Malinois). That is a dangerous practice of a dog in protection/defensive situation. However let me say that in protection training, prey instinct can and should be transfered and utilized in this training and it enables the dog to pursue the perpetrator, bite him, take him down and fight him as a prey = No danger to the dog is being recognized by the dog in prey mode. IMPORTANTLY the
defense drive kicks in if the dog is being challenged negatively = threatened his existence, young ones, territory, food, pack member / you. If the dog recognizes danger this negative challenge triggers then fear and or suspicion which he/she then overcame  by COURAGE (!!!) through aggression. PLEASE UNDERSTAND AND KEEP IN MIND THAT DOG
IN P-R-E-Y MODE DOES NOT RECOGNIZE DANGER AND IN DEFENSE DRIVE HE DOES (and hopefully has the courage to deal with it.) Keep in mind thta people who are caling Malinois fearles do not understand that courage is not lack of fear but ability to deal with fear appropriately> Dog in prey does notr deal with fear/corage.
 That said I would emphasize that dog trained in protection needs both, prey and defense instinct to be optimally in ratio 50:50, in moderate to high amount based on the function of the dog (police versus protection of a family, for example.)
Dog who is genetically predisposed or strictly trained in prey mode to perform protection task WILL FAIL IF HE REALIZES THAT HE IS IN DANGEROUS SITUATION. Some breeds have such a high prey that they go into defensive (i.e. not huntin