Leasing a Female??? - Page 3

I seem to remember reading that leasing a bitch is not unusual in Germany.  Certainly Urans mother, Palme, had several litters that were registered under different affixes.  We have a system here in UK for loaning a bitch to another breeder so they can breed a litter and register it with their affix, while she remains in the owners name so it must be considered a fairly normal practise.

Margaret N-J

I can see where maybe it could work either way, for good or bad, but there's no guarantee your dog, while gone with the leasee, will be properly cared for and treated. How could you be sure your dog was being care for properly if you were doing such an agreement with a 3rd party you don't really know? If you sign a contract saying the dog(or female) were to be kept as an indoor dog, how are you gonna know it hasn't been kenneled? And, what if you get that awesome bitch back a year later and she's NOT the same happy confident dog you leased? These are just chances you have to be willing to be ok with? And, would you truly be ok with them? And what if something happened to someone else's dog while in your possession?

I've heard of these types of arrangements but never knew they were called "leases"; hmm that's interesting to know.  I guess the way Molly said it can benefit both parties really.  I can't see how one could lose on that deal.  So for instance if I own a bitch and wanted a pup from her but did not want the hassle of dealing with a litter and I knew someone who wanted the bloodlines my bitch carried we could make a deal like I get my pick pup, you whelp the litter, split the money from the pups or whatever we'd decide as part of the deal and this is considered a "lease"??

Who's responsible for selling the litter and does the owner of the bitch have any say so?  Or is this something that can be determined on a case by case basis.  Just curious.  I think I'd have to know the person pretty well before I'd trust them with my dogs for that length of time.  Not something I'd venture to consider with someone I did not know or through an ad.

I, personally, would not "lease" out my female for a year. And the lessee, whether I did or didn't know them would have to be close enough that I could visit and at least do an inspection of the living quarters in person. I am just looking at all the different angles with all the pros and cons.

I am interested in the contracts and terms of those who have leased a female and even those who may have knowledge to share but not the experience.

Also, I have never heard of leasing a male....would it work kind of the same way?

Does anyone have experience leasing a male either for themselves or out to someone?

Like Molly, I think leasing has real advantages over buying as far as bringing in new blood.  I only want so many dogs here for ever.  I also find leasing to be much more satisfactory than co-owning as I can decide solely on the stud to use, which ones to keep, how much to sell, who to sell to etc.   I've leased girls several times.  In the past, I've leased a girl from someone who lives near me or is reasonably local.  Then she can stay at home before and after she is bred.  Once the other person whelped the litter and that was not nearly as good as if I whelped the litter.  It was hard to get her bred as the person was not attentive to when she came in season once, so in spite of progesterone testing we missed her.  the next time she caught and the person whelped the litter fine.  I've also let people lease my girls if it was inconvenient for me to breed them and I wanted something out of them.  Then I put my name on the lease as co-breeder, had input into the stud and took the pick puppy.   Worked well but I could see issues with this one, what if she had only one pup. what if we didn't agree on the stud, didn't agree on the pick etc.  However it worked out as well.  Secret is contract, and not letting it ruin a friendship.  It is definately a marriage and needs to have give and take.   But it does allow many to move up drastically in class of the female without  shelling out big bucks or waiting for a puppy to turn out.

Susan

There is nothing wrong or unethical about leasing a female, between two responsible homes/responsible breeders.  The owner of the bitch can have several months of free kennel space to promote a youngster, or maybe it can be an alternative to selling the female before a move/trip, OR maybe they have no plans of raising puppies for a few years and would like to see the female bred.  The lesee can whelp a litter from a quality dog, with their kennel name and be able to keep the best puppies back.  Leasing is often, I have leased a female before and so have many other breeders.  It is not unethical.  In many ways, it is MUCH better than co-ownership, it has a set start day and a set end date with AKC, after the end of the lease ownership goes back to the original owner.  That being said:

ALWAYS MAKE SURE TO HAVE A CONTRACT IN WRITING.  ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU KNOW/TRUST THE PERSON WELL ENOUGH TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE YOUR FEMALE AT THEIR HOUSE!

As far as pricing, either money or 2-3 puppies back, depending on litter size is fair, or money and puppy(ies).  

I should add that I have leased/borrowed several females, but always from friends.  Once from another breeder that wasn't a "friend" so to speak, but we knew each other well enough to know we could trust one another, and everything was agreed upon up-front.  That female I paid a fee for leasing, and then the litter was mine.  The other times I've "borrowed" the females, paid all normal expenses, split the litter and split all "unexpected" expenses.  Worked out great.  I am also right now 'borrowing" a stud dog for my program, to breed to one or more of my females - he is a dog from my own program though not owned by myself.  So again, I know the owner and he knows me, he knows his dog will be taken care of properly and we discussed all details of the arrangement ahead of time.  It's a "handshake" arrangement because  he knows he can trust me to follow through with my end, and I want to use his dog so it works great for me as well. 

Now on the other hand, I own breeding females and a stud dog, and I have never leased or loaned any of them out.  I would, to my close friend who has allowed me to use her female.  But I wouldn't dream of sending my females, and definately not my stud dog, to anyone I didn't know VERY WELL.  I'm "like that" with my dogs - I'd rather take care of my own animals and don't trust too many people to take care of them the way I would.  So, they would only go to a close friend who I knew and absolutely trusted.    And as for my stud dog, who is also my best friend and constant companion - he wouldn't go anywhere, but I would do just about anything else to help a friend or someone with a quality female that I wanted to see him bred to - get it done. 

In fact I used a stud dog once whose owner came with him :).  The expense and stress of shipping my female across the country was too much for my taste, so I asked if the stud dog owner may be willing to ship semen, or ship the dog to me - she did both, she flew to me and brought her stud dog with her, I paid for the stud fee plus her flight to and from, she stayed with me for a week - still cheaper than shipping my female there and back, and much better for her to stay at home.  Worked out great.

Again, "whatever works for both parties", whatever makes both parties comfortable, happy, and gets the results both parties want.

molly

Nothing wrong or unethical about leasing a female for a litter. Its done all the time, with various agreements about who gets how many, which ones, who pays what, usually between owners who are good friends with mutually trusting relationships. It is gnerally done to bring a bloodline or specific quality into a breeder's program to improve (hopefully) dogs produced in future. Occasionally done when the owner of the female is not into breeding, (at least at that time) due to professional work schedule, family situation, health issues, and/or may not have the time/experience/facility necessary to whelp and raise a litter (it IS a big job!) but really wants a puppy from their top quality (we hope)  female some months in the future when they foresee their situation changing enough to allow them to raise another pup. Maybe owner and lessee have friends who also want pups from her, and a top quality male who compliments her well.

Perhaps the female is in the prime of her reproductive life, and both parties understand to wait till she gets much older, skip many more opportunities, might compormise her reproductive and general health. Even after producing a healthy litter and recovering in fine health, leaving a breeding female open for too many successive estrus cycles is not a good idea if you ever hope to have another litter in future, (use it or lose it)  just as bad as over-breeding her can adversely affect her general health and condition. I don't like to see a good producing female I hope to have puppies from in future skip more than two heat cycles in a row. Experience has taught me that skipping 3 open cycles (1.5 years between litters) often results in problems with fertility, sometimes even cessastion of estrus, and, depending on the age/condition of the female,  may land us in the emergency veterinary clinic in the middle of the night facing various degrees of heartbreak and a handsome bill!

As long as the female and her whelps are well taken care of, living/whelping conditions optimal, and she's allowed time to adjust to the lessee's home and bond with someone there prior to whelping, there sould be no undue stress on either her or her litter. GSD's with sound temperament are quite resilient, adapt easily to new situations as long as they are loved and treated kindly.

IMO the breeding qualities of a top female should not be wasted. There are few enough of them as it is. I won't go into my rant about breeding substandard females here. You guys handle that subject just fine on a regualr basis here on this board.

SS

Too complicated above for my simple mind... I would have to know and trust  the lessee over a long period of time before I'd let them lease one of my girls. Sounds pretty commericial to me.

SS