Which is the better pup? Please help me decide. - Page 2

Thanks for all your comments so far. Very insightful. I plan to show conformation as well as title in Schutzhund.  Workability is important as looks since we want to do both show and schutzhund.  These 2 particular pups are litter mates and their sire is VA Quenn vom Loher Weg Sch3. Other VA's in the bloodline include VA Ulk Arlett/VA Uran von Moorbeck, VA Til vom Lechtal, VA Neptune von Bad-Boll, VA Max della Loggia Mercanti, VA Emo von der Wienerau as well as V-rated and all mostly Sch3. here is the linebreeding as follows:

Again I really appreciate all the comments especially those regarding angulation/whithers/pigment/angulation/size/strength etc...I thought by letting you know they are littermates that might add to the critique as well as telling you about his lineage.

By the way when I go to view the pups what do I look for in a pup to tell he has or will have "strong drives?"..personality...I would think at that age it would be difficult to tell other than if a pup was outright lethargic..Respectfully...I mean aren't most pups playful energetic etc..??..It seems to me that would be difficult to determine but being a novice most are challenging but interesting to learn about....thanks again...

Sportsfan

(Dan)

IMO pup #2. I like this pups expression, looks like a little stinker. I think  the ear set is better, more compact, good bone, nicer topline. This pup might be lighter than pup #1 though, the black is receding quicker . Pup #1 is cute but appears longer in its back and a bit cowhocked, which could straighten out, but at this time comparing the two. Pup #1 isn't stacked as good either, front legs to far forward and may appear cowhocked because it is kinda squatting, he/she doesn't look to have the same happy expression as pup #2.

Take stuff to check out their drive-a clean rag the breeder doesn't mind seeing if they will respond and play with you, tossing a choker chain to see if they wanna go investigate it, a pull tug toy to see if either wants to play/pull, rolling a ball (with interest kept-if they lose interest real quick, then they're not so high in drive), and any previous such games played with the pups by the breeder to help encourage the blossoming of the drives. You would have to ask your breeder concerning such. Playing tug is usually a big deal at this age.

I'm with everyone else. #2 has star quality. I'd take a chamois cloth on a 3-4' strong cord attached to a 24-30" stick for testing prey drive. Make it move close to or on the ground like a small animal, not too fast at first and not too high. If the puppy grabs it, let them have it and take it away for awhile, then carefully remove the puppy and do it again a couple of times more if you care to. Its only a basic test, but better than nothing for a novice handler.

SS

You should get #1. By the way, who is the breeder so I can get #2 for myself

I really appreciate everyone's input. I am glad that my years of keeping my mouth shut and my ears open paid off at least somewhat as I too would choose #2 but simply because to me he is the better overall looking pup. I do not have the experience ( nor the eye) to give reasons such as croup/withers/hocks/etc so I am really glad you guys have explained that to me and gave more exacting reasons..

Each of these pups were born Late August and these pics of them are recent (day or two ago). I really appreciate your explanations of what to do regarding drive as well. See above for the pups lines etc.

It turns out this breeder is less than 10 miles from me so I am planning to see the pups in person tomorrow sometime and I will have my son videotape our experience (of the pups) so I can look at the video later at home and take the time to review the pups more carefully and God willing I shoot some good video so I can share it here to  get opinions on movement/drive etc as I will try to do what a couple of you suggested (Shelley Strohl, Katjo74,etc) as far as drive testing......should be interesting....Again thanks you everyone for your input. I will take all the opinions I can get!

Thanks again,

Sportsfan

(Dan)

So where is the litter located? Anything else you want to share?

SS

The litter is in Texas and I purposefully did not include the breeder information as I do not feel at liberty to do so and more importantly I wanted the pups judged on their own merit.

I also have spoke w/a few different German/Canadian and English breeders but I seemed to get the same recurring theme which were comments such as "no breeder will ever sell you or anyone the "pick". Why would they? And several times I simply thought they were inferior pups even if from a top V or VA breeding even with my limited experience. Usually the males had a "feminine" look  or were too closely line bred for my taste etc although much cheaper at approx 600EU + shipping. I can provide example pics to show the difference if anyone wants to see them.

I am willing to look at any pups from any breeder that feel they have a better quality pup than my examples given above for show/schutzhund. I just haven't seen them yet. I mean this respectfully. I wish I could find a reputable breeder who could do this along with help as far as giving guidance for training and where to get good legitimate training etc that I could trust. Believe me for someone like myself as well as I would assume most first timers getting their feet wet this isnt as easy as one might think.. Those with experience/contacts would have (I think) a much easier time than someone like me but I would bet it would still be difficult. By the way I am not only reviewing the pups tomorrow but the breeders/surroundings etc as well.

That all being said I am just trying to be as careful as I can but I do want to take the plunge as I am a devout GSD breed lover as well as my children and can hardly wait to train/show them and travel to do so (if/when needed) but I do want to do all I can to at least start right especially since I am well aware of the costs of training/traveling to shows/titling/etc..not too mention everyday health/care/feeding. I want to start out with the best prospect I can find since myself and family will be devoting time/money effort etc and look to enjoy every moment.

In addition to this my eldest son really wants a "working" GSD not really for show but one that specifically likes to work/schutzhund/trial etc but that is probably a whole other thread...but that is his interest and we are looking to get a female pup to suit the needs for what he is wanting and I know even less about those lines.......sorry for rambling but again thanks everyone for all your input...

Sportsfan

I would pick #2, better topline, longer croup, nicer headpiece and expression, better rear angulation.