WUSV dogs that fail............ - Page 15

Duke, I would argue that it takes courage for a dog to willingly stay in a fight, rather than run. You're splitting hairs.
A 'fear biter' does not have fight drive, that is why when they have a way out, a fear biter will always opt to run rather than try to dominate and win the fight. To dominate a more powerful foe ( such as man over dog), takes a dog with courage and the will to win: which is fight drive.

to me, courage is not a drive

Duke you said you are disagreeing with Joan but I think Joan is saying the same thing. Why would a dog fight if he has no courage? It seems contradictory if you imply that fight does not contain courage.

Duke, look at it this way; a dog with courage doesn't necessarily have desire to kick ass...he can just walk away. Call it lack of possessiveness; as in not wanting to fight a prey animal because the dog isn't hungry enough to want to own it. Doesn't mean he is fearfull, he just isn't motivated enough to expend the energy fighting.....

A dog with the courage to walk a narrow foot bridge spanning a gorge doesn't equate to having the desire to kick a man's ass....say a border collie having the courage to walk that bridge is highly unlikely to have the innate desire to start nor finish a fight with a man. Doesnt mean he lacks courage. ( I know, some border collies will fight, not the norm)

 

But a dog that has fight desire/drive must have courage to overcome a mighty foe. But he needs to have the strong desire to win a fight, not just courage.

I think fight drive is hereditary, whereas courage is a character trait. 

Duke - if you believe that courage is not a drive, then do you believe that it is based in nerve?
Nerve = courage (among other things)?

It takes a dog with confidence, strong nerve and fight drive to have excelled at this year's WUSV. Whatever you call it, knowledgeable people will recognize it when they see it in a dog.

Koots: Whatever you call it, knowledgeable people will recognize it when they see it in a dog.


Yup. And it's obvious when absent....reference to op's video. :-)

Koots: Whatever you call it, knowledgeable people will recognize it when they see it in a dog.


Yup. And it's obvious when absent....reference to op's video. :-)

it is allways a matter of definition, but to me, courage, hardness, dominance etc are no drives as in prey, hunt and defence.

but no matter how one defines it, its sometimes obvious when absent, sometimes not 

Duke: "it is allways a matter of definition, but to me, courage, hardness, dominance etc are no drives...."

I agree. To me those are character traits. ←↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑←

This is what you like?  I expected more. Less noise, better pushing grips, less conflict and more confidence, especially the first dog...and second dog drops his weight. Are ya'll seriously trying to say that this is better than Dina, Dexter or Gazze?

 

Hard dog can be handler hard, I prefer to call a dog that can take lots of pressure strong, and IMO hardness or a dog being strong, has nothing to do with a dog being preydriven or civil,so if a dog stays on the sleeve after out like Gero in the video doesnot say anything about being strong or hard, one way or the other.

this is a female from my breeding that IMO is strong and handler hard(not handleragressive), she happened to to be from line of Gero as well, https://youtu.be/7ByTAqXoqqo

handler hard dog makes it less easy trainable, as in not impressed by corrections etc.

her sire Ajax is a strong and civil dog, but not handlerhard, therefore, easy to train  and correct

https://youtu.be/QqwjXoujM0M