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by Prager on 10 May 2010 - 21:05
OK I am going to have tone now.
Wow he healed naturally. You just picked up a dog and told him "Heeel" and he whipped his ass around into perfect heel looking you into eyes and pranced around with you off leash . And he knew, he just knew what it meant. And then he bounded perfectly over the A-frame and came right back over it into perfect hell without any training .....Naturally. And he bite and out and bark and hold everything naturally.... No training!!!! Anybody could win Nationals with him after you made him associate your verbal commands. Are you sure that you were not working with SchH3 dog?
OK I am done here.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 10 May 2010 - 21:05
Darrel I am sorry, I do not want to be your enemy I just find your statements little too hard to believe.
Prager Hans
Prager Hans
by darylehret on 11 May 2010 - 02:05
Listen, I know how ridiculous it may seem to someone whose experience lies primarily in czech dogs. Had more than a few myself, and I've not run into any that were so completely keyed into their handler; knowing how to read the handler, and whose primary interest is only in performing as the handler desires, proactively. I see more hints of it in the westline-czech mixes. If there's any quesionable command he doesn't completely get at first, with every ounce of attention he tries to decipher what I might not have clearly communicated, and we quickly work it out. That's his greatest strength, his complete devotion to comply with the handler, and to figure out what it is the handler wants if he doesn't happen to get it right away. My dog knows how to read me well, and he really wants to. It's a strong bond with reciprocal communication.
I guess you could probably say I helped him learn how to 'cap his drive' to certain levels in their appropriate situations. That's one thing that didn't seem natural for him from the onset, because from a resting state, when it "turned on," it was full force, and relentless. But given his willingness, it took little time at all, just the realization that it was more than I wanted for what we were engaged in at the moment. But I didn't teach him how to restrain himself, but when to restrain himself. He had the "on/off switch" to begin with, I simply let him know the appropriate circumstances to switch it one way or the other. And learning to focus through his higher level drives was facilitated through his attuned sensitivity to my verbal communication, and further refined through his experience and maturity. You might call it training, but you might instead call it socialization; the learning of an appropriate behavior through context.
Of course, there's further things that if I wanted him to do, we would have to train. Ladder climbing might be an example. Coon hunting might come too natural, I couldn't say. But, given his natural propensity toward focusing on the handler, I did find it challenging to have him shift more of his attention toward working the livestock. Round peg, square hole, and all. Neither would my best herding dog do as well in schutzhund. She was a "natural" from the beginning in honoring the borders, that many dogs first find difficulty with.
My sympathies if you've spent a lifetime training dogs to do what's unnatural to them to not be as fortunate. Have you never had a dog do anything naturally well on it's first attempt? Perhaps it would help to find a job to fit the dog, instead of trying to make the dog fit to the job it's not meant for. The reason I stepped one foot out of czech dogs, is because the czech dogs I owned weren't in themselves ideal for my newfound preoccupation of the time, in schutzhund. Why do you think most* competitive sports enthusiasts from the Cz republic are using westline mixes?
I guess you could probably say I helped him learn how to 'cap his drive' to certain levels in their appropriate situations. That's one thing that didn't seem natural for him from the onset, because from a resting state, when it "turned on," it was full force, and relentless. But given his willingness, it took little time at all, just the realization that it was more than I wanted for what we were engaged in at the moment. But I didn't teach him how to restrain himself, but when to restrain himself. He had the "on/off switch" to begin with, I simply let him know the appropriate circumstances to switch it one way or the other. And learning to focus through his higher level drives was facilitated through his attuned sensitivity to my verbal communication, and further refined through his experience and maturity. You might call it training, but you might instead call it socialization; the learning of an appropriate behavior through context.
Of course, there's further things that if I wanted him to do, we would have to train. Ladder climbing might be an example. Coon hunting might come too natural, I couldn't say. But, given his natural propensity toward focusing on the handler, I did find it challenging to have him shift more of his attention toward working the livestock. Round peg, square hole, and all. Neither would my best herding dog do as well in schutzhund. She was a "natural" from the beginning in honoring the borders, that many dogs first find difficulty with.
My sympathies if you've spent a lifetime training dogs to do what's unnatural to them to not be as fortunate. Have you never had a dog do anything naturally well on it's first attempt? Perhaps it would help to find a job to fit the dog, instead of trying to make the dog fit to the job it's not meant for. The reason I stepped one foot out of czech dogs, is because the czech dogs I owned weren't in themselves ideal for my newfound preoccupation of the time, in schutzhund. Why do you think most* competitive sports enthusiasts from the Cz republic are using westline mixes?
by darylehret on 11 May 2010 - 02:05
..........because it's more than just a training challange. It's genetics.
by OGBS on 11 May 2010 - 04:05
Daryl,
You are positively comical!
You are such an amazing load of crap at this point!
This went from a decent discussion to "I own superdog"!
Where's that used car lot you own?
Are you going to be at the AWDF Championship at the end of this month or Reno in the fall???
I'd love to see all this genetic natural ability in action.
I'll be sure to let Mike and Dan and Debbie know to look out for the dog in the blue and red cape!
Anybody that has half an ounce of a brain wouldn't buy a dog from you after these last few posts!
Were you drunk when you wrote this?
Unbelievable!!!
You are positively comical!
You are such an amazing load of crap at this point!
This went from a decent discussion to "I own superdog"!
Where's that used car lot you own?
Are you going to be at the AWDF Championship at the end of this month or Reno in the fall???
I'd love to see all this genetic natural ability in action.
I'll be sure to let Mike and Dan and Debbie know to look out for the dog in the blue and red cape!
Anybody that has half an ounce of a brain wouldn't buy a dog from you after these last few posts!
Were you drunk when you wrote this?
Unbelievable!!!
by LAVK-9 on 11 May 2010 - 05:05
WOW Have you been a car salesman daryl? I know another breeder that spews crap like that just to try to sell a dog or puppies.. you sound like them and wondering if you would try to sell a car to a blind person!! So what breeding was this "natural" dog from? Any dogs I have seen that is stuck to the owners leg naturaly heeling lacks confidence and has some fear issues. I rather see a dog that has confedence and doesn't have to be attached to the owner but through training wants to please and has a bond that way.
by darylehret on 11 May 2010 - 06:05
So glad you're amused. Do you have anything at all pertinent to say besides useless criticism? My "superdog" is pretty damn special, I agree he's a rare find, but I never said he didn't have faults or limitations. Light colored eyes, possible longcoat gene, extremely aggressive offspring from his first breeding. I've already mentioned his low suitability for herding. All about "job fitness" dear. You don't get a bloodhound for running a race, or a corgi for pulling a sled. Those are physically appearant limitations of the examples mentioned, so the 'heredity factor' should be pretty obvious to you if you're still not getting it. Train them all you want for a job they're not bred for, the process of evolution is much too slow for you to ever see anything develop from it, even if you start with the biddable temperament and assertive handler focus to ease your effort. Once they're gone, who knows? Prager seems to think czech dogs have every element still required, or can regain it within a few generations of breeding. That, I'd be very happy to see more often in czech dogs, or even half as much as I see in west workinglines. Not that they have it all, either.
I could give less about selling dogs, that's the part I wish I could avoid. I take the pieces of the breed that I personally like, and I'm not preserving them for anyone else but me. And of course, I'll take a natural talent over a trained one any day.
I could give less about selling dogs, that's the part I wish I could avoid. I take the pieces of the breed that I personally like, and I'm not preserving them for anyone else but me. And of course, I'll take a natural talent over a trained one any day.
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 19 May 2010 - 05:05
wirhout reading anything in the thread, just the headline. Please remember... There is NO TRAINING without genetics.
by steve1 on 19 May 2010 - 10:05
Adi
Quite Right
Steve1
Quite Right
Steve1
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