Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 10

Ohh Jesse , Sorry I started posting about the first video in this thread on page 5 of the thread and another post later on .
Is there anything specifically you want me to comment on ?

    What I will share with you is that I do not like this video [ the very first video in the thread ] and exercise , I don't particularly care for this dog . I don't see the purpose of a video like this for the public without explanation as to what they want to demonstrate and the reason why they are doing what they do . Personally I fail to see a reason why  the dog should be put through this... either you know the dog or you don't, what it will do or you don't IMOp. ..

    What upsets me most of all , is seeing a man neutral , non-threatening , without any trianing gear , never ever have responded/fought back , and a dog trying to iron out a problem by showing aggression and  confused .. Rhetorically speaking ,for what legitimate reason should this dog aggress . What is the goal of this dog . The man was not even facing the dog , nor in any manner challenging the dog- not even in body posture . This is a very very bad emotional state this dog was put in and what / why should the dog have been triggered this way to act ? .. IMOp this dog is in a very poor emotional state !! If some people feel this video was to see if the handler can rehabilitate that dog.. then they [ in the video ] don't understand dogs or genetics. Nor do they understand behavior and from where it originates . They do don't understand good , normal aggression and what is not good normal aggression .

    I never ever demo unless there is a very good reason to demo. Second, I never put a dog into a situation whereby I cannot with reason predict the outcome and whre i know Iwould put a dog in that emotinal state . If the purpose was for the handler to show the man what the dog would do , it either should have been stated in the recording if this was for public display or not done at all. To me there was nothing to prove in that video ,that one could not have determined and understood beforehand,  except to illustrate how dangerous this dog is. Just look at this dog's Temperament and resulting behavior . This is really really bad !! And a mean , bad , tough dog does not always make a good dog ! A good working dog does not have to be the meanest , baddest , toughest dog. When are breeders and people going to realize this ? Some dogs there is just no fixing.  Most oeople know that when a dog is STRESSED it will refer back to it's inherent instinct or it's  foundation !

    What bothers me also is that some people think, [ I know some people that do ] , that is good aggression and they think this is a good dog. . They like dogs such as this ! To me this was video , this exercise , and the dog , is very very bad . We see the handler at the end lying down with the dog , yes .. but the is still muzzled. What does that prove?

Centurion, THANK YOU!

Personally, once you get to 2.03 on the video, that's when everyone should see that you are not dealing with a confident dog.

I was going to leave this thread, as I thought it was nearing its end.

But now I‘m surprised by some new thoughts here, so felt compelled to get my thoughts in order here by writing them down.

Usually I agree, especially with Cent...but this time I think I see it a bit differently and wanted to present another way to look at this trainer.

I think that Harve is a guy that imo knows what he is doing in dealing with aggressive dogs...dogs where something went wrong along the line.

Yes, Baerenfang, at 2.03 in vid the dog is losing belief in his actions...his half hearted barking...not confident at all....and that is (IMO) EXACTLY THE POINT of the whole exercise.

Harve is not reacting to anything the dog is doing from the beginning.
He begins by just standing there, turned sideways to the dog. The dog is trying all his tricks that have worked in the past to inimidate. This dog was never confident to begin with, but, found success (in the dogs mind for the dogs goals) in his bluster actions.

Harve lets them power out, but does not react, stays neutral and does not back down himself.

Then once the dogs have used up all their “tricks” or their repertoire, he slowly shows them the new way. A more balanced way, and starts to build them up again and removes the muzzle pretty quickly in the training.You can see his rebuilding the dogs psyche on some of his other vids where he has the same dogs walking between crowds of people with zero reactions and no muzzle.

There are many folk out there with dogs that have been ruined and don’t know how to rehab these dogs and some are put down too soon and too quickly because no one knows how to deal with them.

I think Harve Pupier fits right into this category of an old school, no nonsense trainer. But never even uses a prong collar. His facebook page has over 500 5-star reviews. And I wish I could read French to read or watch his seminars.

Not all dogs acting out are unsound, but like the killer horse that Joanro trained, can be rehabbed with this kind of training...one can maybe even call it therapy.
 

👍👍👍

Jesse 

 

Posted my support for Jesse's p.o.v. at same time as Susie posted hers !

I see Video 1 in the same way; I do not know whether Pupier will be truly successful in rehabbing that dog; I would say for sure, that it would not work if it went back to the people who got it into that state in the first place.

Yes, the weak point in this scenario is the owner, not the trainer trying to rehab this dog.
I wonder if this guy, who makes a living out of rehabbing problem dogs, is honest enough to tell paying owners that they are not suitable for the dog...

Joanro was spot on, it's easy to give up, but it's an art to deal with complications and to get the result you want ...

After all, we are talking about a living being we know nothing about.
There are a lot of "dangerous" dogs out there, but in almost all cases it's a problem of the dog/owner setting.

During all the years I only saw 2 or 3 dogs I'd declare that dangerous to put them down - all the others - in the worst case the need to replace them ( to a knowledgeable handler, maybe no children, maybe a real job, be it crowd control or anything else ).

Susie and HM -
That is the million dollar question....
....we the people, are always the weakest link ....or the strongest link in success of a dog.

Jesse, good report/interprtation on the dog in video.
However, I wholeheartedly disagree with the dog showing lack of confidence with change in bark etc at 2.0.
As I stated before, I believe this session took place over many hours....what I see at that point, is shear exhaustion in the dog, he is giving all that is left of his expended energy, but still not willing to 'quit'.

Many years ago, I rescued a juvenile coatimundi from a pet store. This was in 1970, before the selling of 'exotic' animals was illegal...this pitiful animal was a wild capture from South America. She was being fed a diet consisting exclusively grapes...the Coati is an omnivour, same as a raccoon or more like a bear. So this animal had yellow disiduous teeth, and was extremely thin...not to mention she was very aggressive, standing on hind legs, spreading front arms and threatening with long bearlike claws and snarling.

I brought her home, picked oranges from our trees, bought some beef steak, and dry dog food for her. Turns out oranges were her favorite 'desert' after eating raw meat and some kibble. After a couple days, I opened her cage and presented orange slices in the palm of my hand...she grabbed my hand in her teeth a bit down...I did not react. Holding my hand still, she kept biting over and over, but I didn't move. Eventually she left my hand alone and ate the orange slice.
I repeated the offering, she bit me some more, but quit a lot sooner than initial contact. After a few days, she began to greet me, in her Coati voice,and never bit me again. So I opened her cage a let her venture outside, for the first time since she was captured in the wild. She followed me around, making her talky sounds, and I never locked her up again. I built a tree house for her, which she slept in at night, but would not venture out of the tree till I came out in the morning to feed her.
She never strayed out of the yard, only venturing where I did. She became healthy, shiny and her new teeth came in strong a white....she did not allow anyone but me to touch her, only kept her distance in 'her' tree. 

But when she came into eustrus the first time, she became territorial and anyone walking under 'her tree' were snarled at and threatened.
The Miami zoo was her next stop...they had a very spacious Coati habitat, with trees and a lonely male....


Point is, what I saw in the video was a man with tremendous dog sense who took the very same approach, 'wearing' the Mali, down that I took with the aggressive wild Coatimundi....that dog was not lacking self confidence, he was being allowed to get out all his hostility till his 'tank was empty'.....exactly the same approach I would have taken....and have taken with an extremely aggressive two year old male I got back when his owner passed away unexpectedly.

 

However,I wholeheartedly disagree with the dog showing lack of confidence with change in bark etc at 2.0. As I stated before,I believe this session took place over many hours....what I see at that point, is shear exhaustion in the dog, he is giving all that is left of his expended energy, but still not willing to 'quit'.

Joan-

You are right too...I write, or what I meant, is that he is ‘losing believe in his actions’ by being allowed to power out and use up his arsenal. With that comes a certain loss of confidence in that action...not that the dog’s temperament is necessarily unconfident overall. 

Wow, you have the coolest stories of animals!
I have to google what kind of animal that even is...

Lol.
Jesse, so to me, it's not losing 'confidence'...it's allowing the dog to form a different 'perspective/opinion' ....on his own and without coersion.