Shiloh Shepherds...Warlock/King Dobermans - Page 10

Look Folks, I don't have enough time in my day to come here & play your silly games!!  If you have any old NASA magazines I am sure you will see my name in just about EVERY issue during the 70's and into the mid 80's -- enough said!

As for Shiloh Shepherds -- they are NOT 'working GSD's" !!  PERIOD!  If you want to know more about them, visit the links I have dropped! http://www.tinambarber.info/nonPCArticles.htm CASE CLOSED!

Tina:

                  I give you credit you took the work of another and changed it just enough to try to  call it a distinct breed, good or bad you have done a wonderful job of marketing i,m sure that reward was fulfilling monetarily.

Was it the best decision for the GSD breed no not in my opinion. But there are some dedicated breeders out there that follow your Idealism to the letter (Jim Jones had his followers also and that didn't work out very well either)   I suspect you keep the Shepherd name in there for the main reason of catching the GSD folks attention with "oh those aggressive GSD,s"  and the few who say wow a shepherd with less drive ,and there so cute all fuzzy.

Tina I give you a tip of the hat, possibly one of the best marketers in the dog world...

She's been at it alot longer then you Bob.How did you get to be such an expert in your short time with working German shepherds??I bet she even owned more then three dogs at a time and keeping that in mind I'm sure she knows more then a few of us about the nature of the dogs..Oh most breeders are in it for the love of the dog and the money.I believe it cost quite a bit to keep a working kennel going for over thirty years.So I guess she should be bashed for being a good business person as well a dog lover.It's her choice to breed what she wants.she has been successful off her own work,not any of ours.She's not the one that keeps this topic going why is she the one with all the explaining to do.Tina Barber owes none of us any explanation of her dogs or her life with them.

 Wuzzup:

                     There are alot of people that have been around longer then me... I gave her credit where credit is do, carving out a niche but it,s not her own work did she just wave her magic hands and poof the dog appeared? No she built it on the back of the GSD dog. I don,t ask for a explanation just the truth that this dog was created by cross breeding GSD with other dogs. by taking a dog designed for a specific purpose and changing it just enough to try to try to  call it unique... I tire of the GSD,s being to aggressive for home pets which several on this thread have tried to insinuate  that all GSD,s have bad hips and that she has fixed that. Sell the dogs on there own merits not as a improved from the original...

This board is about opinions and this is mine.

Right o Bob ,There are alot of dogs called shepherd the australian the belgum thats just a few i can think of off the top of my head.Now I doubt anyone really thinks an austrailian sherperd (on this dase )thinks it is attached to the german shepherd .Is that a marketing tool?? The dutch shepherd also comes to mind.It's no different then breeding a peekapoo a cockapoo ar any of the other dogs they mix and match.She states she mixed them,She had her own reason,she obviouly see's something in the mix that most of us do not.I guess if someone dumped one in my yard i would keep it,would I breed it NO .I don't like huskys.  This is just my opinion.I guess my main point was she dose not have to be called out by any of us she's not the one who keeps pulling up this post     ..     Good luck with your dogs Bob !!   Jeanne

If my gsd had a temperament that couldn't do the work, I wouldn't breed her. If she bit kids, I wouldn't breed her. If she had bad bone or long hair, I wouldn't breed her, but that's just because I like GSDs as they are. We all have to breed to our tastes; if we didn't, there wouldn't be different "types."

I'm confused about why the Shiloh Shepherd people found it necessary to toss other breeds into the mix. There are plenty of off-color, oversized, long-coat, weak-drive, but intelligent and loving German shepherds out there. Why didn't they just breed from that? Because they would have been faulted and would have been worthless, monetarily?

I feel like I'm missing some info from the Shiloh people. Don't get me wrong; the second best shutzhund dog I ever had was a Catahoula, so I'm not against "developing breeds" at all. I mean, GSDs are still kind of a developing breed, too, having existed for little more than a century. I guess it would make more sense to me to have bred a line of GSDs Tina liked. That's what most of us do. So why did she need a whole new breed?

I'm just ASKING, not accusing, OK?

--Jackie

LOVE the catahoula!  GREAT working dogs!  NOT lawn ornaments!

For the first time on any post, I am in total agreement with Mystere, SueinCC, Bob and VomMarischal

(Love to see video of that Catahoula!)

There are plenty of breeds that can serve as companions, pets, Herding or Search...that dont require outcrossing GSDs to recreate a 'New GSD'  I dont see any improvement or any motive other than that of the dollar.

Id rather adhere to the working standard for this Working Breed. 

The sooner that the Breed Club divorces itself from the AKC and requires Mandatory Breed (Working tests) the better. Otherwise, you fight a losing battle and a Titanic course.

Jackie, an honest question, and I can give you an honest answer.  Tina's book, "Against the Wind: A Breed is Born" sums it up:

I had good reasons for wanting to develop my own dog. If you really study German Shepherds year to year, they don't look anything today like they did thirty or forty years ago. The type has completely changed. There is the German German Shepherd; there is the Czecholslovakian version of the German Shepherd; there's the UK version, which used to be called the Alsatian...And they're all called German Shepherds. The all carry the same name, but they're different.

As for the American German Sheherds, I saw them splitting into two distinctive types. The dogs imported from Germany were aggressive and increasingly difficult to handle. On the other side were the German Shepherd show dogs - smaller, finer-boned animals which in my opinion were lacking in intelligence and nerve....Who needs a dog that rips up the back screen door so he can crawl under the bed if a gun goes off? That was not what I was looking for. I wanted a dog that was very responsive, and very intelligent, that had the guts to deal with a situation if it really came to it, but that didn't look for trouble. And I didn't think that the modern American German Shepherd was that dog....

What I was seeing out there was not what I wanted. It was almost like a fashion model who can't find dresses in the stores that will make her look good. Then one day she says, "I'm going to start designing my own." I figured if I had my own stock, I could also improve the hips so they wouldn't break down on me, and I could maintain the temperment I wanted.

Why did she decide she needed to outcross to another breed? Because:

I tried all the different German lines, I was trying some of the most popular import lines, I was trying the American show dogs, and there was more bad than good happening.

I had a german shepherd dog, AKC registered that was out of Tina's GSD lines. If memory serves me correct, it was from her partner kennel at the time that was in Texas. Yes, it was an affiliate of Tina's. He was bought fully trained for protection, and had the nerves and temperment to do any job. He once performed a bite/hold on a burglar that broke into the shop. Turned out the guy had been in there since 10:30 the night before. Dog attacked held and released repeatedly over a nine hour span. Just like he should have.

Approximately ten years ago, the dog died. I turned back to Tina looking for another dog. I called her and listened, and bought from one of her recommended breeders. Two years later, we washed the dog because of weak nerves. This was for household personal protection. I thought that it was bad luck and tried once more. Contacted Tina again, listened to her complain about a split in the registry and once again bought from one of her recommended breeders. I was assured that the dogs were stable and that former litters from same cross had been protection trained with no problems. Once again the dog had weak nerves and was washed and rehomed with a family member.

Afterwards, I bought a trained protection dog from a very reputable member on the database, straight working lines. Great dog, no problems.

Facts, the GSD lines that were AKC registered as working dogs were such. The Shiloh dogs, I wouldn't take another one if it was given to me. It costs too much to raise a pet quality dog.

Sunsilver, I do not know why you feel the need to take up for her, the dogs she advocates shouldn't be sold as any type of working dog, but as pets. There is enough shelters full of culls. Back then, there were several Shiloh Shepherds that were rescues. I should have read the writing on the wall. Why else would people turn in the dogs with papers so often.

I learned my lesson, I have had working line shepherds all of my life, and that line has no work in them.

My two cents worth. I paid for my lesson and learned it well. If someone wants a working line dog, I suggest that they buy one from proven titled lines. I currently have two working line pups from another member of the database. One is a V Uno vom Stadtfeld X Itzy vom Mengeder Bach. This is what a dog should be, nerves of steel and grips like a vise at one year.