Breed Standard Changes in UK (GSD and non-GSD) - Page 10

"This type of debate as been going on for the last 20+ yrs, if all the German line dogs have a roached back like some believe then surely in appearance their backs would look like that of a Borzoi or Bedlington! In a breed where it is not natural then there would be spinal compression of the disks which would also cause other medical difficulties ie pain, breathing difficulties, degeneration of disks etc"


Wildmoor, all dogs are descended from wolves, so in reality, it's not 'natural' for any dog to have a roach back.  Nevertheless, selective breeding has altered the species into many diverse shapes and sizes.  I have not heard of any  deformities associated with changes to the spinal column except for those in the achondroplastic breeds.  It's the shortened limbs of this syndrome that cause the extra pressure on the back, particularly in the Dachshund.

Could I ask why you think that there should be other medical conditions associated with a roach back?

Could I also ask.... if a Bedlington or Borzoi happened to have the crouching himdquaters of a modern German line GSD, so much so that the rise in the topline fell below the level of the withers in the stance on level ground, would you still consider this dog to have a roach back?

Just one more question..... the backline you presumably consider not to be roached, for example the one in Jim's avatar.  If you place a ruler along the back between withers and start of croup, there is a rise of the back above the ruler.  This means that the back is not straight.  It's defintely not sagging... so how would you describe it?

Xeph, the back is just the region between withers and croup.  The topline is the whole line of the upper outline of the dog from neck to tailset.

See, topline and back has always been told to me as the same thing.  In juniors competition if a judge asks a handler where their dog's topline is, they gesture from the wither to the tailset.

pod as i live with this bitch see her every day in every shape and form i can assure you she does not have a roach back what she does have is a very slight dip just behind the wither when standing foursquare her back is straight and slightly sloping to the croup
jim h

Hi Pod,
The reason I believe there would be  other medical conditons arising out of a true 'roach' back is the fact that in other species whether that be horses or humans where this does not naturaly occur the species as other medical conditions that derive from a 'roach' back.

I have two WG line dogs and none have a crouching hindquarters, 1 as a steep croup and a short firm back  but this does not give him a crouching hinquarter.

This bickering is exactly why there are so many "interpretations" of the breed standard!  Whether the German Show Line dogs have roached backs or not, either way they have a curvature which is not what the breed standard stated.  And yes, sometimes pictures are decieving, the way the dog is stacked can make a huge difference.  Where you really know if the back is roached or curved is in the gaiting.  But why does the back curve?  Who knows, maybe it occured when breeders tried to shorten the length of some of the dogs.  When dogs are gaiting, they are supposed to move with a LEVEL topline, and these dogs do not gait with a level topline.  If anybody doesn't know what the definition of level is, I suggest you go to the hardware store and pick one up!  Forget a ruler, a level will use it's little bubbles and will let you know if the back/topline is level or not.  Take a look at some west working line or DDR dogs, chances are you won't see the same type of curvature as these show dogs.

We should all be able to agree that the name of our breed is GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG.
We should all be able to agree that our breed was founded in Germany just over 100 years ago.
We should therefore look to Germany for the breed standard and the manner in which THEY have developed their breed the GSD.
Here is my IMPRESSIONS of the 2007 GERMAN Sieger Show, considered by all countries to be the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW for GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS.- the largest single breed show in the world.
http://www.videxgsd.com/IMPRESSIONS_SIEGER_2007.htm

You can ALL see the photographs within my article - the arrogance of some, especially the Kennel Club in respect of the BREED STANDARD for the GERMAN shepherd dog, is nothing short of astounding.

This is why I strongly advocate a SPLIT between ALSATIONS and the German Shepherd Dog. Let us get these morons off our backs, let them have their English Alsations, and NEVER EVER let them (Alsations) cross breed with our German Shepherd Dogs. They can keep their LEVEL and DIPPY backs, their crap temperaments, their short front legs, their predominence of weak characters, their overbuilt forechests and all their health problems. THE GSD NEEDS TO BE COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM ALSATIONS, IN THE SAME MANNER WE ARE SEPARATED FROM BELGIUM SHEPHERDS. 

The Alsation is akin to a parasite trying to take over the host body of the GSD.

Let us be rid of this parasite!

Wildmoor, why is it then than these medical conditions associated with a roack back do not occur in the many sighthound breeds that are roached?  And no sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that all WG line dogs have crouching hindquarters.

Do you have answers for my other two questions? -

Could I also ask.... if a Bedlington or Borzoi happened to have the crouching himdquaters of a modern German line GSD, so much so that the rise in the topline fell below the level of the withers in the stance on level ground, would you still consider this dog to have a roach back?

Just one more question..... the backline you presumably consider not to be roached, for example the one in Jim's avatar.  If you place a ruler along the back between withers and start of croup, there is a rise of the back above the ruler.  This means that the back is not straight.  It's defintely not sagging... so how would you describe it?

Xeph, one of the critcal points in this discussion is that the back is the region from withers to start of croup.  If the croup was also included in the backline, many other breeds would also have to be considered roached as the angle of the pelvis ensures that there is almost always some fallaway of the topline over the croup.