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by dcacgsd on 12 June 2009 - 14:06
Can I have opinions on training a GSD in schutzhund and to be a PPD. Would it be recommened to train both at the same time or better to train in one discipline and then after the dog is basically fully trained then do the other? How hard would it be for the dog to transition from one to the other? Would it not be a good idea to do both?
The way I see it, the dog would have more trouble going from PPD trainig to schutzhund training. My reasoning is that, to my knowledge, training for PPD the dog gets to bite the helper/decoy anywhere as with schutzhund the dog can only bit the sleeve. Thoughts??
Has anyone done both with their dog(s)? If so, what was your experience? Does one discipline help to train in the other?
I know that alot probably has to do with the individual dog. In your opinions is the PPD training similar to schutzhund with ball playing rewards ect..? In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus on the decoy rather than the handler. Would this be correct?
I appreciate any and all replies.
Donna
The way I see it, the dog would have more trouble going from PPD trainig to schutzhund training. My reasoning is that, to my knowledge, training for PPD the dog gets to bite the helper/decoy anywhere as with schutzhund the dog can only bit the sleeve. Thoughts??
Has anyone done both with their dog(s)? If so, what was your experience? Does one discipline help to train in the other?
I know that alot probably has to do with the individual dog. In your opinions is the PPD training similar to schutzhund with ball playing rewards ect..? In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus on the decoy rather than the handler. Would this be correct?
I appreciate any and all replies.
Donna
by zdog on 12 June 2009 - 15:06
It mostly depends on the dog, then it depends on the training. our dogs can focus on the handler when need be and focus on the decoy when need be. They are taught to focus on the decoy but still be aware of the handler, but not sensitive. With good dogs, this is not a problem and switching from fun ball work to serious aggression work is not a problem either. Take the "good" dog or "good" training out of the picture and all I can say is you'll have more than a couple bumps along the way
by malshep on 12 June 2009 - 16:06
Astra knew the difference, she was ppd and then transfered over the schutzhund later in life. She knew the difference between suit, sleeve and real bite. The reason for the success with her was I had control and we trained. She was a good one, and was very social also.
Always,
Cee
Always,
Cee
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 13 June 2009 - 02:06
"Can I have opinions on training a GSD in schutzhund and to be a PPD." I will give you my opinion and it's all it is - an opinion.
Before I answer everything, you need to know this - the dog has to have it "in him" to do either. He has to have a genetic potential, wilingness to learn and proper drives and balances. Without that, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to accomplish much.
Think about it this way. A person of "average intelligence", let's say cannot be reasonaly expected to be a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon or a quantum physicist. Nothing "wrong" with the person, it just does not have "the stuff". Or, could a 5 foot 9 person, that weighs 140 lbs, does not have much muscle mass, cannot jump well and so on - successfuly play in NBA? Well, stranger things have happened in this world, but generally - possible? Wel, anything is possible, but extremely unlikely. Just 2 stupid examples to illustrate the point I am trying to make.
"Would it be recommened to train both at the same time or better to train in one discipline and then after the dog is basically fully trained then do the other?" - I believe the second option you mentioned is better. We know from a scientific advances in the last 10, 15 years that dogs learn best by positive approach to learning, breaking down the lesson to manageable chunks and repetition without too much stress and keeping it positive. Once the dog KNOWS the stuff and does it flawlessly, THEN we introduce wrench under the wheels, such as distractions, stress and so on, so we "proof" the knowledge. Kind of like a writen exam in school, so the student can prove via the exam that he has the knowledge learned.
How hard would it be for the dog to transition from one to the other? - Entirely 100% depends on the dog. For the right dog - not so hard at al. Most dogs... somewhat harder but very manageable to do with the right dog, right handler, right helper.
Would it not be a good idea to do both? It's wonderful idea to do both, just in my opinion, not at the same time.
"The way I see it, the dog would have more trouble going from PPD trainig to schutzhund training." I mostly agree here.
"My reasoning is that, to my knowledge, training for PPD the dog gets to bite the helper/decoy anywhere as with schutzhund the dog can only bit the sleeve. Thoughts??" - You are only partialy correct. It doesn't matter where the dog bites. If you stick your duck out and that is the cosest thing to the dog - he'll bite whatever is closest to him. it doesn't matter what part of the body dog bites - that stuff matters later when you do SPECIFIC TARGETING. It is about the drives, nerves and type of pressure the dog is put into. Personal Protection is much tougher mentaly on the dog.
Has anyone done both with their dog(s)? -Many people have before and will continue. My dog is going schutzhund first route, then conversion down the road. Ask Jim Duncan by the nick of slamdunc to weigh in on schutzhund dogs converting to aw enforcement canines. A "real" or live street bite is WAY different than a bite on the sleeve or a suit.
If so, what was your experience? Does one discipline help to train in the other? - Yes. Schutzhund first, it is easier on the dog mentaly.
"I know that alot probably has to do with the individual dog." - NOt "a lot", but mostly everything has to do with the dog and its makeup. handling, training and helper make up the other part.
"In your opinions is the PPD training similar to schutzhund with ball playing rewards ect..?" - Think of schutzhund as "a base", a solid school and a foundation for later work.
"In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus
Before I answer everything, you need to know this - the dog has to have it "in him" to do either. He has to have a genetic potential, wilingness to learn and proper drives and balances. Without that, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to accomplish much.
Think about it this way. A person of "average intelligence", let's say cannot be reasonaly expected to be a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon or a quantum physicist. Nothing "wrong" with the person, it just does not have "the stuff". Or, could a 5 foot 9 person, that weighs 140 lbs, does not have much muscle mass, cannot jump well and so on - successfuly play in NBA? Well, stranger things have happened in this world, but generally - possible? Wel, anything is possible, but extremely unlikely. Just 2 stupid examples to illustrate the point I am trying to make.
"Would it be recommened to train both at the same time or better to train in one discipline and then after the dog is basically fully trained then do the other?" - I believe the second option you mentioned is better. We know from a scientific advances in the last 10, 15 years that dogs learn best by positive approach to learning, breaking down the lesson to manageable chunks and repetition without too much stress and keeping it positive. Once the dog KNOWS the stuff and does it flawlessly, THEN we introduce wrench under the wheels, such as distractions, stress and so on, so we "proof" the knowledge. Kind of like a writen exam in school, so the student can prove via the exam that he has the knowledge learned.
How hard would it be for the dog to transition from one to the other? - Entirely 100% depends on the dog. For the right dog - not so hard at al. Most dogs... somewhat harder but very manageable to do with the right dog, right handler, right helper.
Would it not be a good idea to do both? It's wonderful idea to do both, just in my opinion, not at the same time.
"The way I see it, the dog would have more trouble going from PPD trainig to schutzhund training." I mostly agree here.
"My reasoning is that, to my knowledge, training for PPD the dog gets to bite the helper/decoy anywhere as with schutzhund the dog can only bit the sleeve. Thoughts??" - You are only partialy correct. It doesn't matter where the dog bites. If you stick your duck out and that is the cosest thing to the dog - he'll bite whatever is closest to him. it doesn't matter what part of the body dog bites - that stuff matters later when you do SPECIFIC TARGETING. It is about the drives, nerves and type of pressure the dog is put into. Personal Protection is much tougher mentaly on the dog.
Has anyone done both with their dog(s)? -Many people have before and will continue. My dog is going schutzhund first route, then conversion down the road. Ask Jim Duncan by the nick of slamdunc to weigh in on schutzhund dogs converting to aw enforcement canines. A "real" or live street bite is WAY different than a bite on the sleeve or a suit.
If so, what was your experience? Does one discipline help to train in the other? - Yes. Schutzhund first, it is easier on the dog mentaly.
"I know that alot probably has to do with the individual dog." - NOt "a lot", but mostly everything has to do with the dog and its makeup. handling, training and helper make up the other part.
"In your opinions is the PPD training similar to schutzhund with ball playing rewards ect..?" - Think of schutzhund as "a base", a solid school and a foundation for later work.
"In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 13 June 2009 - 02:06
cont...
"In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus on the decoy rather than the handler. Would this be correct?" - Again, partialy. Schutzhund dog in protection phase is intensely focused on the decoy, no difference. Why would the dog focus on the handler, he is no threat, he is his wingman, part of the pack and part of the team.
"In PPD training I would think the dogs are taught to focus on the decoy rather than the handler. Would this be correct?" - Again, partialy. Schutzhund dog in protection phase is intensely focused on the decoy, no difference. Why would the dog focus on the handler, he is no threat, he is his wingman, part of the pack and part of the team.
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