CROSS BREEDING THE GSD - Page 1

On: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/286756.html#289576

darylehret: writes: "Crossbreeding makes every bit of sense, at the very least before alternatively resorting to working/show crosses, provided your priorities are properly aligned.  A conformation standard alone does not preserve utility, it's proven.  A pedigree isn't the same as a standard, so why should some showline *piece of work* be given some natural "birthright" to be called German Shepherd Dog, over a crossbreed that can actually meet the requirements?  What did Stephanitz think of "purebred" dogs?  Did he ever actually own any, that didn't have some other breed on the papers?  Where's all the advocates for "genetic diversity" now?"

COMMENTS PLEASE

The quotation on this thread comes from the same site that David started another thread "RSV admissable age for breeding".  In that same thread Aqua quotes the rules for breeding and in Para 2 (2) it clearly states that "Only pure bred German Shepherd Dogs may be used for breeding".   Whatever anyone thinks that is the end of the matter.

Mackenzie

Well, you know, crossbreeding really makes a lot of sense! Every spring and fall, and sometimes in between, I like to consider a poodle in the line. Let it be called a Sheperdoodle So now I dont really care for the looks of a poodle, nor for hanging ears. But its proven that the noneshedding gene appears to be a dominant one. It may take a few generations to outcross to the shepherd  look again, but hey, puppymills are pretty much standard, and it seems that the general public truly likes anything hypoallergenic with a fluffy coat and doodle in the name! Besides, considering that poodles are also darn smart dogs, we will be breedng geniuses able to easily win the $ 25000 on Animals Planet Petstar. Conclusion, the puppies should just fly from your sales counter!

Ok, now not to forget that we all will get older and once your are 70 you still want a GSD as you love the breed dearly. The problem, he will be at least 5 times faster then you, which makes walking not that fun at all. To kill two flys with one flap, we could consider the crossbreeding with a miniature poodle or for even faster results a toy poodle. The outcrossing may takes a little longer, but considering puppy mill standards we should be producing miniature noneshedding geniuslike GSDs in 10 years. Whoala, problem solved for everybody

Last but not least, consider that as a late aprils fool.......bahhhhh  Oh yeah, this idea is patented and copyrighted. Puppies are $ 100 000 a piece. They come with a garantee to balance your check book. Taking deposits of only $ 5000 now!

This whole 'doodle' business makes me steaming mad!

My brother had allergies as a kid, and I can tell you, it's not the hair that causes the problem, it's the dander (flakes of dead skin.) ALL animals with fur shed dander from their coats, so poodles and poodle mixes are NOT HYPOALLERGENIC!

Then, of course, there's the non-fluffy coated pups born in these mixed breed litters, which are often shipped off to the pound and euthanized shortly after birth.

Sorry, I know this is a bit OT, but I just had to rant! 


To get back on track: I am all for genetic diversity....WITHIN THE GSD BREED!

With all the different variations produced by different countries, that's a snap to achieve.

I am 100% against reducing the gene pool by making the Alsatian style GSD and the American style GSD different breeds, though!

JMO....I know some of you will strongly disagree.

I went to school at Virginia Tech and my emphasis in my Animal Science Degree was in Equines.  Our program dealt almost solely in German Warmbloods...mainly the Oldenburgs.

The serious equine german warmblood registeries (Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Trakhener, etc...) DO crossbreed between the different breeds..and frequently include other breeds (the VT Herd Stallion is a French Anglo Arab who is approved by Oldenburg NA, AHS, GHV, NASFA, and AHA....our other stallion is an Oldenburg NA approved Holsteiner).  There is a Keuring and a process to it that involves making sure the animals structure and movement fits that of the approving breed in order to maintain breed type -- however it is done and done frequently.

The end result is that these are the breeds that are excelling in most of the equine performance sports these days.

Just a thought from someone who was in horses before dogs.

~Cate

You know dogs have worked with man for centuries and dogs have intentionally been bred for type,  yet the closed studbook is only, what, maybe 100 years old, give or take?

With many genetic issues due to limited gene pool coming to the front what are we risking at the sake for "purity"?  Several breeds have done systematic outcrossing to fix problems associate with decades of inbreeding. All modern breeds suffer from the founder effect, due to limited initial genepool, no?   I would rather see outcrossing endorsed IF it could help the breed and people far more knowledgeable in genetics than I would need to answer that question. Would much rather see a controlled plan and not the various mixes that people are trying because I am sure there is a lot of science in propagating improvements.

Personally, I would FAR rather see outcrossing to other breeds of similar type and function than bringing back gene lines from American GSDs and Alsations.

I don't care about show or sports points. I just want a utilitarian dog that can do the work I require [detection work], is sound, and has good temperament. I look at other breeds and keep coming back to the GSD. A good lab does as well, but the herding dog temperament is more suiting to my needs for a dog that can work close in and is not a total knucklehead.  

Isn't work the intent of the breed? Shouldn't the requirements for the best over all working dog in the world be the driver and not some modern interpretation of a vision from years past. Is the breed intended a shelf trophy or a true working partner?  It seems dogs bred for police service are still typically suitable for detection work and SAR as there is enough variablity that the dog without outrageous fight drive but otherwise good drives may still make a quite suitable detection only dog. Why are people breeding these dogs as pets?
 
Totally agree that there needs to be a standard but we have seen how that one standard can be interpreted into ridiculous exagerrations because the intent for the breed has been lost.  I see what people with working hounds and working terriers do. The feed and breed the dogs that produce the desired outcomes and really don't care so much about "purity"

JMO as someone who does not breed these dogs but winds up with the final product.

The concept of cross breeding is interesting.  It's use however is something else although used in other canines and equines amongst others.  When considering cross breeding we have to consider first the need for this and the first question that comes to mind is "have we exhausted all other means of complete improvement?"  In the case of the German Shepherd we have not, far from it.  That is probably one of the reasons behind the rule that "Only pure bred German Shepherds may be used for breeding".

Mackenzie

This post is by David Payne.  David can you please give us your comment on your post?  We appear to have run out of contributors.

regards

Mackenzie

??? Mackenzie, I think what you meant to say is, "This post is FOR David Payne", not  "BY David Paye"!

Yes, I'd be interested to hear his comments too, though I know what he's probably going to say.

Interesting posts about the crossbreeding in other breeds and animals. I did not know that about the horses.  It certainly made me go 'hmmmmm'!

Some breeds have had to introduce crosses, or unpapered animals to deal with genetic problems. I have no problem with them doing that, but as Mackenzie says, I don't see the need to do it with the GSD. However, it bothers me greatly to see Preston post that none of his GSD's have made it past 8 years! Even giant breeds, like the Irish Wolfhound often live that long! What have we done to the GSD that their lives are now so short?

My first GSD had to be euthanized at 9 due to arthritis in her spine. My second made it to 14 1/2. My service dog is now 7, and shows no signs of slowing down just yet. However, these were all rescues, of unknown bloodlines. I look at the inbreeding in the German lines over the past decade or so, and can't help but think that may be to blame.