training question regarding positive reinforcement - Page 1

i'm doing private training session with one of the trainer. he is more of positive reinforcement and which i really like it.
its been few times i took it to private session and i do often take it private session when i needed.

my question is:
trainer asked me to play with only one ball and tug and play and don't let dog win or take the ball.

he asked me to use food to out the ball and i showed it to him as my dog never outs whether it be food or anything once she grabs it especially ball that she likes the most.

i showed it to the trainer and he asked me to hold the ball but not by moving towards me but hold in same position and when dog tugs less then he asked me to out the ball.

but still the dog never outs and he asked me to use the lease and pull to out.

i'm bit confuse as i also went to one of the SCH club but they told me to lure the dog with ball and show it and do heel and let the dog win.

i know there's different methods of training but in my situation i'm bit confuse.
if i let my dog win she gets so happy and takes it and brings back to me for tug.
but if i force her to out and pull she whimpers at me.

i'm also thinking to meet with the trainer but i'd like to get some suggestions as best to deal with this would be glad to hear.

thanks so much.

What are your goals are you training for Schutzhund?

Jim

I am a bit confused by your post, what is it that you are actually asking?

If you are asking if you can use food to out the ball from a dog the answer is yes you can, however most people do not start to use this until far too late which means they end up not having the patience to carry out this method and then use compulsion.

this is completely different to using the ball to reinforce heelwork.  Luring should be used very sparingly otherwise you end up making the heelwork contingent on the presence of a ball when you should be making the ball contingent on the heelwork; it is the most common mistake I see when food or ball is used in training, people do not move on.

 

Neither of the above two techniques are mutually exclusive.

There are different ways, and each has its advantages.  I like to use two toys at first, but that's me.  A lot of people play tug and then stop, no movement from you or the toy till the dog gets sick of it and starts to let go, you then "out" the dog and by him outing, he'll learn the game starts back up again and you reward by giving him another grip or he's allowed to chase and grip.  

Some say the reason for doing this is it doesn't ingrain that posessiveness some dogs have over their toys, it doesn't teach the dog to fight with the owner  and some other things.  and opponents of this method say it creates premature outs when the helper locks up and they like the dog being posessive over the toy or sleeve.

I've seen dogs trained with lots of different methods and have to say if your dog prematurely outs because of this, you missed some training along the way, i've also seen lots of dogs that weren't taught that way and weren't fighting with their owners all the time.  it all comes down to clarity and you have to take all the steps necessary to train a dog a certain way and skipping things only results in problems down the road. 

We learned outing using two hose type games.  Naming it when she dropped the first toy,  then moving to asking to her drop it on cue for the second one.  Outting is easier when we are NOT tugging, then she hesitates, but WILL out and does understand what it means and we always start the game over again if she outs.   This is only for toy play and retrieving though,  I don't do protection work with her at this point.   So my thoughts may be worth less than  two cents if you have other goals!    I didn't use corrections to teach an out.

You can use two of the same balls. Play the ball game. Throw one ball, when she comes back to you show the other ball and tell her out. When she outs that ball throw the one in your hand for her. Keep doing this back and forth. She'll ossociate the word out with releasing the ball because she knows she will get rewarded for it. If you never let her win and always make her out you'll create conflict and she'll never want to give it up. By pulling it only makes her fight for it more. It's called opposition reflex. You pull, she pulls. You push, she pushes. If worse comes to worse and you need to correct her then use a Nylon choke collar. Lift her up CALMLY and tell her out/sit. after she outs and sits, she's aloud to have it again. But it sounds like the two ball game would work.


      Mark
www.ultimatekanine.com

thank you all for sharing with me.
yes i'm training for SCH obedient.
sorry that my post made you confuse.

i do exactly same thing as Mark's suggested that's what i've been doing for a while.
if i do with two ball she is happy and when she outs she is eager to get reward back.

since i was bit confuse, as my trainer wants to use one ball and play with it and tug and let her release when she can't pull much and once she makes eye contact then reward her with ball.

as he thinks in SCH obedient there will be no toy to lure with so he wants to have base as making eye contact inorder to reward her and come close to you. which might make sense but its hard.

but in my case or any other case, it will be difficult to have dog out while the dog is in high drive unless one rewards for doing it.

this happened as i was with club few weeks as new member and stuck with personal stuffs then after few months back instead taking to club thought to use private trainer to build up quick and better that's where i got into confusion.

also, my trainer wants me to be perfect on this basic level first before going further for obedient training and protection.
but my gal is around 21months now and ivn't worked any protection neither tracking.
will it be too late for me to start in my case.

sorry too many questions.
would be glad to hear any suggestions.

I've started with older and gotten titles.  But that doesn't matter.  Training is the best part, for me anyway.  A title is just to go prove your work.  If you never get one with this dog, you'll be that much better off for the next one.  Nobody ever gets it perfect the first time, or the 2nd or 3rd, well you get the point. 

For Obedience training, I'd look into marker training.  To me, it is the most effecient way to teach new behaviors

thanks zdog. i read your earlier post and i was also doing the same thing with tug as you mentioned.
play with the tug and lock it up at one point and after a while dog releases then out and once she makes contact let her bite.
but this causes me the same case as ball. she doesnot want to let go biting and circling around and tries harder.
but for ball its very hard.
if the dog doesnot let win i don't think the dog think its fun for it unless i out and reward for outing.
orelse the minute i lockup or i grab the string of the ball the dog will release without being told out, correct?

this method seemed very confusing to me and hard. while if i play with two balls i feel comfortable and i can bring dog's drive.

i know it depends with different trainer with different dogs but as a whole i just want to know better idea and technique.

zdog, yes i'm trying to be ready for my second dog... better and earlier than this first dog.
instead of titling her i want to learn myself, experience and be her well trained and behavior friend that i can have :)

if two toys are working for you and your dog, then use it.  I would.