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by Get A Real Dog on 22 February 2009 - 21:02
This should be fun, but I am a glutton for trying to educate the "experts"..........
It is quite common in Belgium to work a dog with an e-collar wrapped around it's belly with the reciever on the back of the dog, just in front of the hips. They do this for two reasons (that I know of, may be more).........
1). Very hard, aggressive, angry dogs will fight right through a collar on the neck. I know everyone here has such experience with these types of dogs. E-collar stimulation will sometimes INCREASE the fight and aggression in the dog. When the correction comes from the rear, it has a different effect and will not piss a dog off as much.
There are e-collar technuiqes where stimulation is applied to increase intensity in a dog and I have even heard people use it to teach a dog to grip forward, re-bite fuller, etc. but that is way over the head of my e-collar knowlege.
2) So in the same vein, placing the e-collar on the rear of the dog does not increase the anger and aggression toward the decoy and will naturally encourage the dog to turn away from the decoy and speed the recall to the handler.
When you see a dog worked with 2 e-collars, they are probably not used at the same time. The one on the neck will be used for OB and/or increasing intensity in the grip or fight. The one accross the rear will be used for the out and/or the speed in recall. That is my understanding of it and how it has been explained to me by people who used this method; taught by trainers in Belgium.
Abuse is not dictated by the tool used but by the application. We have had this discussion several times. Abuse is also relative to the temperment of the dog. A sensitive dog that is corrected harshly can consititute abuse, where as the same level of correction can be taken by a different dog. So the harder the dog, the harder you have to be for something to be labled as "abuse".
The real abuse I see in alot of training is people who correct a dog in any form of severity or intesity when the dog does not understand what is expected of it. That is abuse because it is unfair. A hard, hard dog can take a whole lot before it contsitutes abuse IMO especially if it knows what is expected of it.
If a dog does not know what is expected of it and is punished that is unfair and abuse. Even if the correction is slight it is abuse, physicological and emotional abuse, which is far worse than physical abuse.
It is quite common in Belgium to work a dog with an e-collar wrapped around it's belly with the reciever on the back of the dog, just in front of the hips. They do this for two reasons (that I know of, may be more).........
1). Very hard, aggressive, angry dogs will fight right through a collar on the neck. I know everyone here has such experience with these types of dogs. E-collar stimulation will sometimes INCREASE the fight and aggression in the dog. When the correction comes from the rear, it has a different effect and will not piss a dog off as much.
There are e-collar technuiqes where stimulation is applied to increase intensity in a dog and I have even heard people use it to teach a dog to grip forward, re-bite fuller, etc. but that is way over the head of my e-collar knowlege.
2) So in the same vein, placing the e-collar on the rear of the dog does not increase the anger and aggression toward the decoy and will naturally encourage the dog to turn away from the decoy and speed the recall to the handler.
When you see a dog worked with 2 e-collars, they are probably not used at the same time. The one on the neck will be used for OB and/or increasing intensity in the grip or fight. The one accross the rear will be used for the out and/or the speed in recall. That is my understanding of it and how it has been explained to me by people who used this method; taught by trainers in Belgium.
Abuse is not dictated by the tool used but by the application. We have had this discussion several times. Abuse is also relative to the temperment of the dog. A sensitive dog that is corrected harshly can consititute abuse, where as the same level of correction can be taken by a different dog. So the harder the dog, the harder you have to be for something to be labled as "abuse".
The real abuse I see in alot of training is people who correct a dog in any form of severity or intesity when the dog does not understand what is expected of it. That is abuse because it is unfair. A hard, hard dog can take a whole lot before it contsitutes abuse IMO especially if it knows what is expected of it.
If a dog does not know what is expected of it and is punished that is unfair and abuse. Even if the correction is slight it is abuse, physicological and emotional abuse, which is far worse than physical abuse.
by sueincc on 22 February 2009 - 21:02
I've seen them used this way many times and with great success in my neck of the woods too. GARD, I wish you luck with this topic. 
by animules on 22 February 2009 - 22:02
GARD: "...The real abuse I see in alot of training is people who correct a dog in any form of severity or intesity when the dog does not understand what is expected of it. That is abuse because it is unfair...."
Exactley. Once a dog understands and knows what is expected, the use of e-collars to fine tune or proof the dog is not abuse.
Exactley. Once a dog understands and knows what is expected, the use of e-collars to fine tune or proof the dog is not abuse.
by Elkoorr on 22 February 2009 - 22:02
even tho I agree, I also wonder how in the world did we train dogs as there was no e-collar? or what did we feed them as there was no kibble? Why do I all of a sudden feel sooooo old....LOL????
by getreal on 22 February 2009 - 23:02
GARD,
I honestly think that you are wasting your time trying to educate the ones that call it abuse. I have never had to use one on the flanks, but would not rule it out. I know that the people that whine and cry about them do not even have a clue of what the stimulation feels like, or else they would not be crying abuse. Nor do they realize that every dog's pain threshhold is different, and that the pain threshold tends to increase once they are engaged. (BTW, I am not defending idiots that have no idea how to use ecollars and knock the dog in the dirt with them)
Now I personally use the tritronics flyway specail, because I like the large selection on monetary stimulations. It allows me to fine tune to each dog. But to be honest, my collars gather a lot of dust until I am working on finishing up the dogs, and I do not believe in relying on ecollar under no circumstances. I actually pulled them out this year to help someone else and had to trade them in for new ones because of battery leaks. Collars are so much better now than they were twenty years ago when I first started using them, and well worth the money. Let me hear them whine about a dog getting kicked in the head by a horse or rolled over by tires because they were too ignorant to break them from it.
This should get interesting though, it is funny to sit back and watch how quick some of the people on here jump on the bandwagon just to bash someone or something. To each their own, I would rather put the time in my dogs rather than gripe about other people and events that I have not witnessed.
Ok, got a little off topic, but I am with you, no abuse if used correctly and responsibly, no matter whether it be the neck or flanks.
Take care,
Jerry
I honestly think that you are wasting your time trying to educate the ones that call it abuse. I have never had to use one on the flanks, but would not rule it out. I know that the people that whine and cry about them do not even have a clue of what the stimulation feels like, or else they would not be crying abuse. Nor do they realize that every dog's pain threshhold is different, and that the pain threshold tends to increase once they are engaged. (BTW, I am not defending idiots that have no idea how to use ecollars and knock the dog in the dirt with them)
Now I personally use the tritronics flyway specail, because I like the large selection on monetary stimulations. It allows me to fine tune to each dog. But to be honest, my collars gather a lot of dust until I am working on finishing up the dogs, and I do not believe in relying on ecollar under no circumstances. I actually pulled them out this year to help someone else and had to trade them in for new ones because of battery leaks. Collars are so much better now than they were twenty years ago when I first started using them, and well worth the money. Let me hear them whine about a dog getting kicked in the head by a horse or rolled over by tires because they were too ignorant to break them from it.
This should get interesting though, it is funny to sit back and watch how quick some of the people on here jump on the bandwagon just to bash someone or something. To each their own, I would rather put the time in my dogs rather than gripe about other people and events that I have not witnessed.
Ok, got a little off topic, but I am with you, no abuse if used correctly and responsibly, no matter whether it be the neck or flanks.
Take care,
Jerry
by mobjack on 22 February 2009 - 23:02
Bravo GARD & Jerry!
I feel old now too....
I feel old now too....
by muttlover25 on 22 February 2009 - 23:02
I agree if used properly and with an experienced handler e-collars can be a great tool. My biggest problem with them is their availability to the general public. We have a boarding kennel and see way too many dogs being "trained" with an e-collar so many of them are very young puppies or dogs that have had NO training that the owners allow to do anything and then all of the sudden the behavior is out of control so let's use a shock collar on the dog. We see alot of lazy pet owners using shock collars and that is a huge problem. I feel for the dogs in situations like those.
Amy
Amy
by hexe on 23 February 2009 - 00:02
Bullshit.
But I'm not surprised. I fully expected the 'real, hard dog' crowd to rush in and defend the *improper* use of a perfectly acceptable and effective training tool. There are people who defend child battering and domestic violence, too.
Interesting that none of the companies that manufacture e-collars have embraced that 'common', 'does not equal abuse' method of using the device by producing a model specifically designed to be used on the belly/flank/hindquarter of a dog, if it's such a acceptable and benign application. Perhaps they expect a competant, ethical trainer to be able to *out think* the dog, and to spend whatever time is necessary figuring out how to approach a training challenge instead of taking the lazy (or talentless) way out by misusing their product.
For the record, I have nothing against the correct use of an e-collar. I own three different models myself, and I *do* know exactly what the full spectrum of stimulation options for each of those units feels like, because I tested them out when I got each unit--and I also know full well that there's a significant difference in the skin sensitivity of a human versus that of a canine.
And I know abusive training 'techniques' when I see them.
Edited because I dropped a quotation mark at the start of the description 'real, hard dog'.
But I'm not surprised. I fully expected the 'real, hard dog' crowd to rush in and defend the *improper* use of a perfectly acceptable and effective training tool. There are people who defend child battering and domestic violence, too.
Interesting that none of the companies that manufacture e-collars have embraced that 'common', 'does not equal abuse' method of using the device by producing a model specifically designed to be used on the belly/flank/hindquarter of a dog, if it's such a acceptable and benign application. Perhaps they expect a competant, ethical trainer to be able to *out think* the dog, and to spend whatever time is necessary figuring out how to approach a training challenge instead of taking the lazy (or talentless) way out by misusing their product.
For the record, I have nothing against the correct use of an e-collar. I own three different models myself, and I *do* know exactly what the full spectrum of stimulation options for each of those units feels like, because I tested them out when I got each unit--and I also know full well that there's a significant difference in the skin sensitivity of a human versus that of a canine.
And I know abusive training 'techniques' when I see them.
Edited because I dropped a quotation mark at the start of the description 'real, hard dog'.
by MVF on 23 February 2009 - 00:02
Hey, I think it's animal abuse to eat a hamburger, so I'm not objective here!
by Two Moons on 23 February 2009 - 01:02
There are a few reasons I would use a shocking device. Only a few, and not often.
There is a fine line here as far as I'm concerned.
When you can't change anyones mind why bother in the first place.
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