Tips For Training and Directing Drives - Page 1

I have a male with good prey drive, not excellent. He is out of very nice show lines however his defense and fight drive is very high. These fight and defense drives are only on the field and not at home as he is big pet happy to greet anyone who visits. On the field the helper has to work him hard to stimulate fast hard bites unlike most the show type dogs that may flee with this type of confrontation. If he is not worked hard he will release sleeve and guard helper. When he works in this drive his grips are not calm and he will growl and sometimes have a chewy action on the sleeve. Also at times he doesn't carry sleeve good and he will spit it out demanding more action. These actions probably build up to our biggest problem at a trial setting as his fustration builds extremely high when he doesn't win sleeve causing lots of growling and poor grips that are not calm. On a good note his bark and hold is great. Any advise to help with these problems would be greatly appreciated. (He has just turned 3yrs. and has been in training since 22months of age)

A few things seem to be going on. Without seeing him, the caveat is that you should find a very good helper/trainer to guage which drive he is in when working. I'd ask around to find someone familiar with working dogs who might need work on grip problems and prey rework. From what you've said, it sounds like his foundation work in prey wasn't very good. His grip is uncertain and the likely cause is that he is too defensive when worked and his prey doesn't come out. The defense is good to have, but when used as a primary motivator for the dog to bite, it can cause problems with grip, etc. I might try to work a bit on desensitizing the dog to the helper to be less defensive and boost his prey when he sees the helper (he may have had a lot of defense before his prey was established). To do this, I would probably do some rework on his foundation - try to work him more in prey and work him with switching drives so that he gets prey prey bites after some defensive stimulation. So that he comes to see the bite as a happy/fun thing and a way to relieve the stress. He might have some troubles as well with the out, if he is that chewy, mouthy on the sleeve. Might try some exercises with bite, out, rebite, bite, out rebite, over and over again with the stimulation/frustration going up each time and the helper/decoy keeping him in drive throughout. The other recommendation would be to try to use the methods of Bernard Flinks. He has several video's/dvd's that might be helpful. HIs first dvd, "Training Drive, focus and Grip" would be a good way to work his prey drive up to it's maximum level - AND to learn to trust you when on the bite. This should help some of the chewiness/nervousness on the bite. HIs grip should be solid and calm and that is the goal of this tape and his training. Sounds like a nice dog. Good luck with his progress. --Alan

Sorry forgot to say, you can get the Flinks dvd at www.leerburg.com along with a lot of other great training and Schutzhund resources.

I had a male that was doing very simular things.....he wouldn't carry the sleve, as soon as he got it he would spit it out....I decided that he learned the game, as soon as he gives up the sleve the sooner he would get a bite again....so when he spit it out I took him to the car and put him in his crate, then at the end of club training, I brought him back out and we did it again, after about 4 times of this happening, he decided to hold for a longer time, as he wouldn't get a re-bite he would have to go to the car, and not get to play anymore....this worked with this dog. Heather

So glad to see acepatch's post....as that is EXACTLY the problem with my 3 yr old bitch! I'm fairly new to Schutzhund so don't have a lot of experience with how different helpers can work a dog. The bitch has a stong bark but evidents stress even though putting on an impressive show of aggression. She tends to bite frontly and sometimes growls on the sleeve. She also loses interest in the sleeve as soon as she possesses it and only lately, with some coaxing, will carry it for any distance. Unlike Het's dog, I don't see her dropping the sleeve as playing a game, but rather as trying to end the stress of confrontation. Her attention is usually immediately focused back on the helper again and she is quick to go on the defense with the sleeve still on the ground. (btw, outing has never been a problem) I have now been going to a different helper and he has said the same things that Alan mentions: not enough work in prey; the dog needs to have more "fun" to relieve the stress of defensive work. More bites as reward. This bitch is from working lines with DDR/WG/Czech breeding. She is a sweetheart around the house, handler sensitive, but it is obvious that she does not have the over-the-top prey drive of our WG bred dog. At home she has a calm bite and seems to enjoy prey work...but in front of a helper she goes defensive quickly and the uninformed are impressed by her aggression. However, I've learned enough over the years to realize this is not always a good thing and I am beginning to learn to recognize the levels of stress beneath all that impressive barking. Hopefully, with this new helper "reworking the foundation" (as Alan puts it), she will become more confident with a helper, calm down on the sleeve, and start enjoying the biting game. We'll see...

These dogs are missing foundation training. You went too fast too soon. Good back to sack work and building drive and forget about defense training at this time. Build the confidence and drive then move forward.

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wow, old thread, but a couple of good posts here.

I'm too tired to post anything that will make sense, so will wait until tomorrow.   :)

Though I'd like to see some helpers chime in!

I agree that these dogs need to be works more in prey drive and less confrontation from the helper...

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