Breeding question? - Page 1

What is your opinion about breeders who breed without proven bloodlines in both parents, including those who breed with non-titled bitches to top studs, and claiming to be selling pups as great grand father of so&so, grandson/ granddaughter of so&so, son/ daughter of so&so.

Do you see anything wrong with that?

Also, is there a responsibility from the stud provider in allowing a non proven bitch to be mated?

only thing I will say is that,  titles do not make the dog.  titles can be bought, and there are titled dogs who definitly do not derserve them.  it is a much bigger problem than most people care to realize.

Hello Uber Land,

I understand that titles does not necessarily carry its weight for all the dogs that compete.  That is why I mentioned proven bloodlines as a gauge for breeding purposes.  There again, with its combinations does not necessarily produce puppies with all the traits of a good dog as one may expect.

With so many breeders about, how do one select a good prospect?

Should we not discourage irresponsible breeding of dogs by amateus?

Who defines an irresponsble breeding? And a good prospect for what work? There have been lots of threads about breeding, responsible and irresponsible, on PDB. Just do a search in the threads.

And EXACTLY what is "A PROVEN DOG????" What should be PROVED, and Who should it have been Proven Too?

Hello Sam1427 and kitkat3478,

You are absolutely right, the topic has been extensively discussed.  I have much to catch up on the reading.  Here's the link if anyone else interested:

Are Titles Necessary Before Breeding? (171 replies)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/73017.html#75000

Proven bloodline?? Just because a dog does not have titles does not mean it can't work, and therefore should not be bred. People breed for different purposes. A highly titled, over the top drive dog who will do choriographed(sp?) routines until the cows come home is not what I want. I have bred a total of 2 litters in 10 years. I do not advertise. I have the capabilities to keep half a litter, which I do, and the rest lower drive puppies are placed in homes. I keep, raise and train them with the hopes that all will be molded into police dogs. I have not gone wrong with this yet. Each dog is evaluated on their own merrit. Bloodlines are not as important as health and working ability. This is my opinion. I don't bash others dogs or the way they do things. To each is own. I do think that because I have bred for working ability and not for angulation, I have dogs that look more like the origional Shepherds. I'll take a good working dog over a titled dog any day. I breed what I like to own. Bash away.

Melissa

Thses are 2 of mine. The shepherd is one of mine and the lab was a rescue.

I think a lot depends on the reasons for breeding the untitled female and a conservative stud dog owner will take these into consideration.  You have to look closely and ask a lot of questions and know what you want.  If you want all of the bells and wistles, why even consider looking at litter out of an untillted female?  What are your goals and what do you need to get there?  We must also remember that titiled parents do not always equate to a supieior porgency in every pup.  Maybe 1-5% of these pups are worthy of the show ring, in the case of a working paring, the percentages of excelling on the Sch field may be greater.

I my case, I breed my untitiled bitch twice in order to be able to afford the training toward her Sch1.  Prior to this, I knew she had a1 hips, was intelligent and would bite well.  Her conformation was not top notch, lower range of the SG youth groups, but she had good bones and a great temperment and produced better pups.  It is the responsobility of the stud dogs owner to make sure that the litter will not reflect poorly of him, especially if he is well know.  Typically stud fees are the only way to recoup the investment in a top stud dog and few breeders will use a male not proven on the field and in confirmation or breed them to a bitch that will produce pups that will reflect badly on the stud.

Her litters were sold and she was titled.  It would have been more prudent of me to sell the pups with a limited AKC registration and lift this later, but with the timing, the majority of the pups being sold to pet homes anyway and only one owner considering breeding one litter to retain a pup from a beloved pet, I was unconserned with limiting the registration on a really nice litter.   This last pup was a stellar female that could excel in sport if trained right and I would have kept her if I could have

The limitations on these pups on the schutzhund field are nill.  The conformation ring would have regualted them to a V position(where a majority of dogs are placed anyhow), provided the owners had the wherewithal and funding to aquire the training, hip certification and titiles needed.  Then you also need to hope that this pup grows into a great animal, the roll of the dice with ANY breeding or pup purchase titiled parents or not.  I am sure averyone on this board can relate to an expensive pup that did not reach the potential they wished for in the show ring. 

I have found this is not a hobby or sport for the person not willing to put in the time and money required.  Buyers have the option of NOT purchasing a pup from this type of paring, thus discuraging the practice.  However, there are plenty of people looking for a bargin pet dog (these pups are typically discounted) from a famous line and therefore, the practice will not disapear.

...What about someone who owns titled dogs and breds them, yet never shows or competes with their stock, even at local shows? Does that raise any hackles here?

It does for me.

I think that it's far more important for the owner/breeder to be active with their dogs, rather than trying to buy success. Anyone with enough $$$ can buy a high V / VA dog. But whether or not they actually do anything with the dog again once they have it remains to be seen. Some people just buy the dogs for their titles, then mass-produce puppies once the dog has achieved a rating they think will bring in protential customers.

I would rather consider a dog from an active breeder, rather than one that just owns and never shows their stock or progeny.

The thing about progeny though, lets face facts: most dogs will be bought by the pet owner, rather than the working or show home. And some owners might buy with the intent of working/showing, but then get out of it once they realize it's a lot more work than they thought. They go to a few shows with an unconditioned dog, get a low place, then burn-out... rather than putting the time and effort in to properly get (and keep!) their dog in show shape.

Dogs change too. A LP puppy might turn into a SG, even a V adult, and vice-versa. I've seen some very promising puppies never develope into outstanding adults. Puppies are always a gamble.

Insofar as titled dogs in a pedigree:

By the time the dog is a great-grandson/daughter of so-and-so, the genetics have become so diluted that the only thing certain that so-and-so has contributed to this pup is inking a name on the pedigree. Grandprogeny are closer, but not a sure thing in regards to ability or conformation. You can never be sure, even with great dogs, what the results will be.