Old vs New Training - Page 1

There have been a few threads lately that have been interesting because of the different views on training to solve the ever same puppy problems. There was a discussion about possibly creating fear in a dog using shake cans or the like, or the reaction/behavior hearing one.

What I'm leading up to is this, does this same concept also apply to electronic correction/training devices. I say this, because I think they do. My dog is radio collared for our perimeter only. A while back we had an electrician testing outlets and his tool emitted a certain beeping noise. My dog all of the sudden decided to hightail it to the upstairs. I was wondering what was up, when i realized he heard the beep and didn't know where the zap was coming.

So, is this the same or different?

When I expressed my distaste for the "shake can" it was not necessarily because of a pup's potential to be fearful, but rather because I feel strongly that a dog should respect your rules, quite simply, because they are yours. Not because something flies through the air and rattles, not because they get a sudden squirt of water to the face, not because the table leg tastes like bitter apple-  because they respect you and for no other reason. Just my personal philosophy.  Don't get me wrong, I believe wholeheartedly in compulsion, pressure and correction (applied fairly and consistently) , but I find it unnecessary to startle a dog to train it.  If you want your dog calm and confident, you must be this way also.

E-collars are wonderful, highly effective training tools when trained with appropriately, but are confusing at best and abusive at worst when used improperly.  It sounds to me like your dog may have anticipated a zap on hearing the beep. If it happens again, I would recommend you call your dog to come and praise them lavishly, get the dog focused back on you in a positive manner and leave it at that.

I do not feel the two situations you are presenting are the same. One involved a method of teaching, your situation involved a dog showing confusion over a command/correction that is taught but presented in a circumstance he does not understand.

Thanks KCzaja,

You have given me something to chew on! I will do as you say if it happens again, hopefully I won't need the electrician anytime soon. I had worried that this could become his achilles heel, so to speak.

(He is a rather confident dog and we were proud of his big boy barks at the looming skeletal figure that showed up on our porch for no good reason.)

I bring this up more for the pet training person than the serious dog sport enthusiast. I have noticed many pet people rely on the e-collar to create indoor boundaries. What is the dog learning from this type of use? Not to focus on you, as you say is/should be the priority when dog training, but only what is to be avoided? 

Beetree, I think you hit the nail on the head there.  I once visited a family that used an e-collar to keep their doberman from barking at strangers who came to the house. The dog just avoided them when they went to put it on him, and kept barking at me, until one of the family members he respected (somewhat!) managed to corner him, and collar him. It was obvious he respected the collar, and not the humans. I saw the same situation with a shake can being used on a much smaller dog. The dog totally ignored the humans unless they had the shake can in their hands.

I am not saying these things are useless as training aids, but YOU need to establish yourself as the boss, and get the dog to respect and focus on you, not some blasted gimmick!

However, having dogs that wait until I am out of the house to counter-surf, I can understand why e-collars are sometimes necessary indoors.... 

I will sometime's use a throw chain to get the dog's attention, but my voice and tone is what the dog need's to pay attention too.

There are only a few time's that an e-collar should be used to correct a situation and you can screw a dog up really quick if you don't know what your doing.     I don't like gimmick's either.    Sometimes one can be handy but there are better way's to train.

And the dog easily figure's out who has the button in hand.   I would not advise amature's to use e-collar's at all.

I agree with sunsilver.

Two Moons:  This trainer I was talking about would toss lightly, a wadded up choke collar, at large beasts, because otherwise they just didn't notice.

I guess I'm mostly old-fashioned and didn't prevent the problem in the first place, like YR always advocates.  We use the e-fence because he could be dead otherwise. Can't take that chance. Don't like the idea of  indoor e-boundaries much, but am damned thinking about it for the garbage pail. My sister is the one who has them for her new australian something (?) But still I don't think they've actually trained the poor pup in the least!

I just redid kitchen, had in-drawer hidden garbage, finally after decades of awful pails. Dog defeats pull and helps himself, whenever. I am stubborn, refuse to use baby guards, must always be clean and tidy and non-dog attractive in garbage dept.

Any good advice welcome.

I hate electric colars I think they should be used only when disability enables someone to handle their own dogs on a leash.

just say no to E colars

Beetree, that's pretty much what TwoMoons means when he says 'throw chain'. I have tossed a wadded up leash at my dog to get its attention when it was off leash, and ignoring verbal commands. This goes back to the old William Kohler days (Guard Dog Training), and I think it's a useful way of getting a dog's attention without hurting it, as long as the chain isn't from the local dungeon!

Kohler was the first book on training that I read, and though some of his stuff was over the top in terms of harshness, he DID get a lot of things right. I see Brad on "At the End of My Leash" on TV using EXACTLY the method Kohler describes to teach a dog to heel. Okay, Kohler didn't use the 'umbilical cord' leash, but everything else is the same. You do not talk to the dog, you do not warn it when you are going to change direction, and if the dog gets in the way, it gets bumped aside. The whole purpose is to teach the dog to focus on YOU, and not on its surroundings. It also does a great deal to teach the dog who is in charge.

Most boundary e-collars (invisible fence) give a warning beep before the correction.  The electrician tool was probably the same pitch.  To bad you can't rig the garbage can to beep.

E-collars are wonderful, highly effective training tools when trained with appropriately, but are confusing at best and abusive at worst when used improperly.   KCzaja

That sums it up perfectly.  It is merely another tool in the tool box and like any tool can be mis-used.  For Claus it has meant greater freedom and more off lead time with a lot less stress.  I can't feel the collar at the level it is set on, it is that mild.  (8 out of 125)  He is not inhibited by the collar in the least.  He is happy and up beat while wearing it.