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Vom Brunhaus

by Vom Brunhaus on 23 October 2008 - 07:10

Http://CBS3.com/topstories/Plymouth.Township.Police.2.846538.html

Http://Cbs3.com/local/Allentown.Police.dog.2.846325.html 

A couple stories for your interest. The way it usually works around here is buying a hi drive Czech or Slovak dog, then an E collar, then joing a local Police K9 Association. From there it goes to cops training each others dogs and then to the Certification process. Mostly all are certified. Perhaps these Officers should look into Professional Civilian Police K9 Dog Trainers, however different states have their own laws and regulations regarding this. Without mentioning by name please consider that most all Police K9 Associations are not receptive to civilian K9 trainers. If your a Cop you "walk in" for Civilians its a different process.  VB


by Teri on 23 October 2008 - 11:10

Since I have SAR dogs I checked to see who the local LEO's certify their dogs with.  I was told the tracking/trailing & cadaver dogs certify through FDLE.  I don't know who they certify or if they certify their patrol/protection dogs with.  When I contacted them to enquire if they would certify civilian dog handlers they said no/never.  I asked about their test requirements.  They said you have to be a full time officer (I was a fully sworn reserve LEO) but that didn't count???  They are not required to take a practical test with their K9, basically all they do is submitt their training logs.  Anyone can hand whip a training log!!!! 

With this being said, I was VERY surprized to hear another local civilian SAR team claim ALL their dogs were certified with FDLE?????  I asked them who did their certification and explained I'd enquired with FDLE personally and was told no civilians!!!!  Then they said they trained to their standard after receiving a copy from a LEO friend.  WOW, big difference.  When you have people running around making stuff up, it is no wonder why LE Agencies have an issue trusting civilian SAR handlers. :o(   It is very hard to open that door.  It is my opinion they need higher standards starting with training the officers K9 emergency medical needs, pet CPR, etc.  and attending basic training even before applying for a K9 position with their agency.  You'd be surprized to find the requirements placed on civilian handlers: for cadaver handlers you have to have the following before you can even test your dog; Blood bourne pathogens, CPR Adult & Child, Pet First Aide, IS 100, 200, 700 & 800, Crime Scene Preservation, Haz Mat Awareness and SAR Tech II.  I might be missing one or two.  Plus all the equipment.  NASAR does a pack check to ensure you have all the equipment prior to being allowed to test.  If you are a cadaver handler you don't have to carry the pack on your back while testing your dog, however the trailing handlers and airscent handlers do!!!!  No easy task hauling a big pack in the woods while testing.  

I wish there was one universal standard of testing  and certifications for LEO & civilians alike.  Then I think they would be more willing to open their doors to the civilian resources.  NAPWDA opened their testing to civilians but until they have nuetral evaluators you are going to run into the LEO mentality, they are better and you are unworthy and you often times are set up to fail. :o(  

Teri


Vom Brunhaus

by Vom Brunhaus on 23 October 2008 - 11:10

Teri, LEO certifying mostly with USPCA as well as NAPWDA. VB


deacon

by deacon on 23 October 2008 - 16:10

>  Same old ##$%&*_+=??/ again.  Until you have been there done that go ahead and be the expert critic. We have friendly fire accidents periodicly in the military, I am (retired), should we go to civilian trainers to tell us how to deploy our troops, I don't think so unless they are previous military with that type experience!!

>  I also have no qualm with civilians teaching the basics to a dog and then turning him over to an officer., but I prefer someone who has experienced the job to teach me or my handlers the tactics on how to survive, once again not somebody who has not been there, done that. Not saying that because I have the experience makes me superior. Anybody can buy a book read it and attempt to teach it, but to me it is not the (real) deal if you can't on occasion recollect previous experiences  and dwell on them occasionally!!

>  I have had several civilians who have trained along side of us for years, quarry work, working their dogs in the same scenarios as us as well as other tasks. I had one (female) who traveled (55) miles each way to train with us weekly, she very rarely if ever missed a session. She attended Tom Rose School, assisted me in all facets of PSD training but never got involved in tactics, although she observed them and used them every training session. She now has her own dog training business in NC.

 >  I have nothing to do with training SAR dog teams so I will not comment, but every handler I have placed on the street has more than enough emergency first aid training to perform on his/her partner until he/she is able to be transported to a vet for further treatment. We receive an annual class by our vets to ensure we don't forget either!

>  I don't use NAPWADA, USPCA either (nothing against you guys)!. I use my own standards which are a lot stricter. Once they pass my eval I then put them up for a national cert. I will be more than happy to pm you with a copy if you so desire.


by Teri on 23 October 2008 - 18:10

Deacon, I would be very interested in seeing a copy of your standard.  My HRD dog is Nationally certified  but I would still be interested in seeing your standards.  I understand you feelings regarding civilians teaching the Military.  My boyfriend was a Marine for 13+ years and has a huge amount of training as well as experience.  As a matter of fact I tease him all the time because all he has really been taught/trained to do in his adult life is Kill!!!!! LOL  

I am glad to hear your organization prepares their officers to care for their K9 partners, that is not the case here at least it appears that way by the preventable trageties that happen too often.  :o(  It needs to be a standard everywhere.  K9's are a valuable asset that should be highly valued.  I don't care if anyone is a civilian or not.  My main concern/focus is to train my k's and test my k9's to the best of their abilities.  I don't ever want to be handed something just because.  I want to earn it and work damb hard to do just that.  At the same time, I don't wish to be disrespected because I am a civilian and/or the breed of dog I show up with at a search.  He is nationally certified and has proven and earned his right to be there.  It shouldn't matter what he looks like, big surprizes come in small packages and he has always gone above and beyond to work hard for me.  Enough said.           

Teri


Slamdunc

by Slamdunc on 23 October 2008 - 21:10

Wow, what a great novell idea; civilian k9 trainers for Police Depts.  There is a very good reason most departments don't use civilian trainers, because they are not Police Officers and don't understand the needs of training a Police K9.  Some Depts will seek outside advice from select highly skilled trainers, I know Depts that use Armin Winkler and he does seminars for them.  I am in a Police K9 school now training my new patrol dog.  I have a lot of specialized training from years on the job and transferred from narcotics to K9.  I have worked the streets, and I've been on the entry team for nearly 100 narcotics search warrants.  I can tell you, I don't want a civilian training me on how to deploy my dog during a building search.   It is dangerous and I want to learn from guys who have been there and done it.  My dog and I will be worked on the entry team with SWAT, and deployed in a tactical environment.  Can you help with that training?  Oh by the way, you'll need some SWAT experience to start to understand the application of the dog in that environment. 

I have also been involved in SchH since '94, raising and titling all of my dogs from puppies.  I have also decoyed for years and still do for both Police and Schutzhund dogs.  Trust me, sport work regardless of what it is: PSA, SchH, etc.  is not a real world application.  Police K9 work on the street is much different.  Post every bad story you can find about cops here... But, don't ever post the good stuff we do.  I won't comment too much on the stories you posted, except to say it is unfortunate that the dog and Handler were shot.  I am very sorry for them both.  Being a K9 handler is a very dangerous occupation in this day and age.  Dangerous for the dogs and for the handlers.

My advice VB, if you are such a great trainer hold a seminar for your local PD and neighboring jurisdictions.  Maybe they'll like what they see, maybe not.  Remember flashy obedience does not make a great Police K9.  And civilians can  join the Police K9 associations, usually all you need is a reference from a current member and the dues.  And Police K9 handlers should be able to "walk in" to these K9 associations, that's who they are for! 

Lastly, what is a  "Professional civilian Police K9 dog trainer."  Are you a civilian or a Police Officer?   That seems like an oxymoron, I'm confused.  How should my department look into getting one of these?

Jim


by jodagirl on 23 October 2008 - 23:10

I know a civilian trainer who puts the basics of civil type training on a dog then sells them to police K9 departments as a dog ready for the final phase of police K9 training. The ground work is there, the K9 trainers finish the training tailored to police K9 work.


by Get A Real Dog on 24 October 2008 - 00:10

Here is my take on this subject as both a sport dog competitor and a police officer.

For the most part it is simple. Police officers are not dog trainers and dog trainers are not police officers.

IN GENERAL---Civilian sport dog trainers are better trainers. Very few police officers bring dogs up from puppies or know how to do it. They are not versed in channeling drives, building grips, etc. Many are not very good at "reading" a dog. Or really knowing how to "teach" a dog. OUt here in Ca, police K9 training is improving and evolving, albeit at a slow pace. I still see things that make me cringe. When I see stuff from other parts of the country, it really makes me cringe.

IN GENERAL--Sport dog trainers have zero training or experience in police deployment tactics. None, nada. Unless they have prior military or police training. Even if they do, there are many different styles of police tactics and different departments do different things. Each department has there own General Orders they must follow.

These are two totaly seperate entities. Here in lies the problem. One side is very good at one thing the other side has the knowlege and experience in the other. How do you bring these two together? It is very difficult for a number of reasons. Some departments do not allow their officers to train outside the department for liability and/or possible workmans comp claims. Often times police officers have a difficult time taking advice from civilians. Civilian trainers often do things "their way" and are very uncomfortable going outside their area of expertice be it Sch, FR, whatever. Small departments do not have money to hire outside trainers. The list goes on and on.

In my experience, the very best Police dog trainers are the one's who started in sport; then became police officers.

Sport work and Police service have completly different objectives. Besides foundation training you really can't compare the two.

 

 


Vom Brunhaus

by Vom Brunhaus on 24 October 2008 - 11:10

GARD good post as usual.  Slamdunc Good Luck in your K9 endeavors.


by Teri on 24 October 2008 - 12:10

GARD good post, I agree with you.  Not all departments are the same due to many factors GARD covered only one of which is funding but that certainly is a HUGE factor for LEO & civilian's alike.  Not ALL civilian trainers/handlers are good.  I have to agree we have certified civilian teams in my area that I sure wouldn't want looking for my lost loved ones!!!!!  Basically a test/evaluation only proves you and your dog performed to that standard on a given day.  Unless that standard of performance is maintained, it can be quickly lost.  The true challenge is a team that trains frequently challenging both members of the team to improve their skills all the time.  Sadly most just train to the standard they will be tested and usually right before their re-newal and nothing more, never challenging themselves or their dogs.  Some tests are never required to renew!!!!!  Others only every other year.  I think there is something to learn from just about any handler.  Not all handlers are good just like not all instructors are good but some have a natural talent and gift.  I think civilian and LEO handlers can learn from each other and would have better working relations if and when they need to work together.  A lot of times angencies don't have the resources for large scale searches or don't have HRD K9's and using a good civilian team(s) they are familiar with (train with) and trust for searches would be a wining combination in situations were they could use some assistance.  I think more often than not ego's get in the way, agencies are reluctant to use civilians and when they do, they are often times very critical even insulting instead of giving them a fair chance.  This could be reduced if not eliminated with first hand working knowledge of how each other work.     

Decon sent my his Dept's standard for me to read and it was great.  I really like the idea that they test/evaluate on a regular basis and if a team has any deficencies they work on it and can be tested at any given time (if I understood it correctly).  I think that is great, keeps everyone on their toes and ready for action!!!!!  I agree 100% that officers have the greatest hazards on a daily basis, it's real, not make believe and you can't re-call the bullets sent from up or down range!  Not only do you have to protect yourself, you are constantly thinking of your partner who doesn't carry a gun only a mouth full of teeth.  :o)   But civilians often work if very bad neighborhoods and don't have the benefit of a vest or gun and often times not LEO escort.  I've even had to protect my K9 from stray dogs.  I can't afford to have a sick or injured dog, the bills are all on me and if they are out of commision we can't help others.  If I have Vet bills other than standard care that I budget for, I can't afford other stuff like seminars, certifications etc. because everything comes out of my pocket.  We volunteer our time and our dogs time, we purchase the equipment and supplies for ourselves and dogs.  Not only do we have an emotional ties to our animals but a financial one.  We put a lot into our dogs, training, seminars, certifications, etc. it would be nice to see our efforts appreciated and utilized a little more often.  My team is luckier than most, we get to work with several LE agencies locally as well as out of state.   We have had to work hard to be accepted and requested.  More often than not agencies we help really appreciate our efforts and are pleased with our work ethics.  I just think the best way to h






 


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