Teaching the long attack - Page 1

I just watched the 2008 WUSV courage test video (great vid thank you). I have always had a question about the entries I see in Sch courage tests. I have my theories as to why  but wanted to hear what some think and better yet how they train for the entry.

The vast majority of the dogs in this video (and most of the dogs I see in Sch vids) gather themselves to some extent on the entry. Not many dogs go striaght through with reckless abandon. The few I have seen of the top of my head are Chello v Banholtz, Terry Macias's Eik v Nordenstamm, and then there was Belchsik (to which I have never seen another GSD compare as far as an entry)  None of them have the flying, leaving the ground from 6-7 feet in front of the decoy.

Like I said, I have my theories but what do you experinced Sch people say? Is it lack of courage (I find that hard to believe at the world level) is it training, is it the way a decoy catches the dog?

How do you guys train technuique for the entry and why do I not see these amazing entries very often?

Not bashing, just a personal observation and question I hope stirs some actual training talk.

Thanks,

GARD

lets see,,,,

training,  this issue speaks for itself

lack  of  intensity,,,speaks for the dog itself and breeding

self preservation,  why risk harm when there is not that great of a threat.

some dogs just move faster than others.

personally i would rather my dog slow down than risk jamming the spin up.  it only takes one bad long catch, either dog or helpers fault, to end a dogs working career.    if some nut job were running and yelling at me, im going to hold my dog back, pull out a weapon and take care of the matter myself.   

i have been told and advised that you can create a dog going into a helper faster, harder, etc.   but like i said before, why risk injury.

john

 

Drive? Intelligence?

Seems to me that many malinois tend to have more "reckless abandon"  then our intellectually superior German Shepherds...

Mali lovers take no offense please, I am a huge fan of a nice malinois!

Theresa

So what are you saying Theresa? GSD's lack drive and think too much, or are they scared of hurting themselves?

John, touched on one of my theories. I believe jamming a dog is almost inherint with sleeve work. Sch sleeves are not soft. There is no give on a Sch sleeve. I don't care how good you are with a sleeve, you will jam a dog from time to time. Often times what I see people calling a nice catch, I see as some what of a jam. Part of my theory is advanced Sch dogs have all been jammed at one point or another if not many times. Even slight jams would not be pleasant with a hard charging dog. I believe this is one reason many Sch dogs slow down at the entry.

Another thing I see is decoys always taking dogs to one side. If you have a sleeve presentation in the middle of the chest, the dog is going to go left or right of center mass. Not all dogs go the same way. If you take a dog left, that wanted to go right, you are going to jam them to some degree no matter how smooth you take the entry.

Of course some of it is genetic and the consitution of the dog. This little one I have now leaves the ground 5 feet in front of me and comes like she was shot out of a freakin cannon. No training, all genetic.

 no one has any ideas or tips on training technique for an entry? I know how French ring sport people do it for leg bites; and how to teach the dog to take the pivot leg to avoid the esquive.  

I know how to teach a dog  to turn their head to the outside for leg and arm bites in a suit.

I know how to teach a powerful dynamic entry for PSA and PSD dogs. (assuming the dog has the guts to do it)

I am kinda familiar with how the Belgians do it to teach that forward pushing grip (but not much).

I am trying to spark meaningful conversation here and maybe learn something new.

Do you guys just turn your dogs loose and let them bite, or is there more to it?

 

 

Not so much "lacking" drive, more not having "over the top" drive that over rides their sensibilities. I am not knocking Shepherds by any means. I was half joking. Actually, I have seen a few GSDs that do enter at full force, and it makes me cringe a little for their safety. Luckily I have never seen a dog get jammed severely.

Theresa

A dog's courage is not determined by whether or not he flies through the air.  It might be more exciting to watch (for some)but it has no bearing on the ability of the dog or in judging the exercize.  

I'm sure many of us  recall seeing the infamous video of an international championship in France where multiple dogs were jammed, stepped on etc., during the courage test .  One dog even had to  be put down.   The information I was given was that the problem was the decoys were not from schH sport and were not familiar with how to catch flying dogs on the courage test.

Flying isn't really an indication of drive alone. I would think it is a mixture of drive (not necessarily the highest), body type, and a dog with generally low trigger levels for prey. My dog who doesn't really fly has much higher drive than my dog who does. The flier is easier to catch...the other one slams into you like a freight train and you have to be really careful catching him. So, in my opinion "air time" is nothing more than good eyecandy. How many dogs have you seen 'fly', and then totally miss the bite?

quote: I'm sure many of us  recall seeing the infamous video of an international championship in France where multiple dogs were jammed, stepped on etc., during the courage test .  One dog even had to  be put down. 

 

If you are writing about the FMBB of a few years ago, you are mistaken. No dog had to be put down. The dog that was rumored to be put down has since trialed, as has every other dog that was hurt in that trial.

I'm not saying that it was not a horrible trial. I just want to get the facts straight.

GARD,

here is one of my favorite videos of how some people train the long attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gilN-GWVKg

 

I think the reason the dogs slow up multifold. For one, most of the dogs (GSDs) are simply not capable of launching 6 feet out and getting a grip. They can hardly clear the meter jump. How can they catch a helper at 35-40mph?

 

Second, many of the dogs are hurt. After a few years of bashing into a sleeve I’m sure many of the dogs have jaw, neck and back injuries that they are favoring and thinking about when they are coming in.

 

Third, the nerves are too thick. One reason why Mals come in so fast is because the excitement and drive send the dogs into “forward flight” response. The GSD is too thick nerved to respond in the same way.   Ever notice that the GSDs (re:Belshick et al) that are a bit nervy come fast on the longbite?

 

And lastly, the ability of many club helpers is not high enough to teach the dogs the skills need to come in super fast.