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by starrchar on 15 March 2009 - 23:03
by Trafalgar on 16 March 2009 - 01:03
The breeeder/customer dynamic is NOT one of even power and authority and a customer does not have the same degree of responsibility in these situations.
First off: the breeder SELLS a dog - and no matter how noble and ethical they believe themselves to be - they have - by the nature of selling - a different responsibility than the buyer - who PAYS.
The buyer's moral responsibility lies in selecting a breed wisely, being very skeptical of everything a breeder tells them during the purchasing process and then providing the dog with the proper type of training and socialization to make them a pleasure to own.
The breeder's responsibility is to understand that they sell dogs that should live for 12-15 years and dogs that die young or develop arthritis or any other genetically based problem - at ANY TIME DURING THE LIFETIME are their responsibility.
Offering to replace a dog with another puppy is a barbaric practice DESIGNED to wiggle out of responsibility because only the most cold blooded person on earth would "trade" their dog for newer model (from the same manufacturer). Although - a bit more cold bloodedness on a purchaser's part will go a long way. Return a dysplastic dog and a breeder will be likely to think more carefully about the consequences of a sick dog than they will if no one ever returns a problem dog. They should offer a partial refund, of course, rather than another puppy.
Breeders are willing to take credit for any accomplishment a dog achieves at any time during the lifetime. Their concern and responsibility should extend to disease for the duration of the dog's life as well. Obviously, the details of reasonable responsibility will vary from circumstance to circumstance.
by gsdjill on 16 March 2009 - 02:03
Uber Land - this was not directed at you. I do not know who you are. I am sorry if you took it that way.
Starrchar - a health registry sounds like an interesting idea. Do any breeds keep such a registry?
Trafalgar - you got my point exactly. A breeder will gladly take credit when "their" dog gets a title - be it in AKC or in working sport - but if you contact them and tell them of a problem (like hip dysplasia in my instance) immediately they wash their hands of you, looking at what you did to cause it. Very sad. There are many more responsible breeders than not out there. Some type of registry as Starrchar suggested seems to be the way to go.
Thank you all for joining this discussion. ~Jill Friday
by Sam1427 on 16 March 2009 - 03:03
That said, I do wish that breeders would want to hear about the genetic problems in their lines. If bitch A and stud B produced a large number of dogs that showed certain genetic problems, why wouldn't you want to clear them out of your lines? Yes, I know...there's the problem of the breeder who likes the conformation or likes the drive or likes the genetic bite of that line in the here and now and to hell with the problems later. To me, that's just shooting yourself in the foot because of the reputation that results over time to that kennel.
No, I don't have the answer. A breed health registry sounds like a great idea, but who is to administer it? The parent clubs would seem the logical choice, but propose it and listen to the shrieks of protest from breeders. The AKC is not my first choice of administrator for health registries since it would require so many different ones for different breeds. The parent clubs are a better choice but would have to grow backbones. However, the Doberman people seem to be getting a handle on VWB with mandatory testing so it can be done...if the will is there.
by Darcy on 16 March 2009 - 04:03
The dog develops spondylosis. Genetics or poor nutrition and overexercise? Say genetics. Is it an easy recessive trait or more complicated? Where do you want to point fingers? Decide that and you can certainly do it. I have had dogs with HD, Pannus, allergies, hypothyroid, lumbosacral spondylosis and EPI.
there are so many people out there that simply do not care what happens to the animal once it even enters the world and they treat their animals badly, let alone worry about the health, that I think everyone involved in this picture has to take responsibility. There are just as many rotten people waiting to buy dogs and intentionally treat them badly let alone do it through ignorance. I am the case in point for ignorance here. Overvaccination.... My girl had sever anaphylactic shock at her one year vaccines. The vet had already repeated vaccines the breeder did. The breeder was overzealous in vaccinating. The dog ends up with allergies, pannus, hypothyroid, spondylosis and intravascular lymphoma. Whose fault is that? I tell you I feel it is mine for ignorance. Sure wasn't the dog's or the breeders. Maybe there was a genetic weakness there that was compounded, but who knows? I would repeat it with her all over again to with a few changes.
There are buyers and handlers that dump dogs for very small things instead of working through them or adapting to the dog. Someone already made the point that we are dealing with living things and everything doesn't always turn out perfectly. With dogs, sometimes it takes longer to see when things aren't working out as planned(think kids and marriage her. ugh) .
With all of the dogs I mentioned, I have had different people to talk to and had different responses. My dog with cancer had a sibling with a different cancerand could be handler aggressive. Yet, they kept his sperm and used it after he was euthanized. Kennel blind or hopeful? The dog with the bloat issues was someone that was falsifying records and is probably breeding and selling back yard now as well as he can't register any of them with the AKC.
Kennel blindness or just refusal to admit being wrong, making mistakes, or lack of knowledge, we all share responsibility buyers or breeders. Buyers often fail breeders to. Perhaps we should blame the scientific community fo rnot having clearer answers for us sooner.
Darcy
by Darcy on 16 March 2009 - 04:03
The dog develops spondylosis. Genetics or poor nutrition and overexercise? Say genetics. Is it an easy recessive trait or more complicated? Where do you want to point fingers? Decide that and you can certainly do it. I have had dogs with HD, Pannus, allergies, hypothyroid, lumbosacral spondylosis and EPI.
there are so many people out there that simply do not care what happens to the animal once it even enters the world and they treat their animals badly, let alone worry about the health, that I think everyone involved in this picture has to take responsibility. There are just as many rotten people waiting to buy dogs and intentionally treat them badly let alone do it through ignorance. I am the case in point for ignorance here. Overvaccination.... My girl had sever anaphylactic shock at her one year vaccines. The vet had already repeated vaccines the breeder did. The breeder was overzealous in vaccinating. The dog ends up with allergies, pannus, hypothyroid, spondylosis and intravascular lymphoma. Whose fault is that? I tell you I feel it is mine for ignorance. Sure wasn't the dog's or the breeders. Maybe there was a genetic weakness there that was compounded, but who knows? I would repeat it with her all over again to with a few changes.
There are buyers and handlers that dump dogs for very small things instead of working through them or adapting to the dog. Someone already made the point that we are dealing with living things and everything doesn't always turn out perfectly. With dogs, sometimes it takes longer to see when things aren't working out as planned(think kids and marriage her. ugh) .
With all of the dogs I mentioned, I have had different people to talk to and had different responses. My dog with cancer had a sibling with a different cancerand could be handler aggressive. Yet, they kept his sperm and used it after he was euthanized. Kennel blind or hopeful? The dog with the bloat issues was someone that was falsifying records and is probably breeding and selling back yard now as well as he can't register any of them with the AKC.
Kennel blindness or just refusal to admit being wrong, making mistakes, or lack of knowledge, we all share responsibility buyers or breeders. Buyers often fail breeders to. Perhaps we should blame the scientific community fo rnot having clearer answers for us sooner.
Darcy
by forbes on 16 March 2009 - 13:03
Also at training I have watched people who have dog with health issues or temperment issues and they just train their dog in spite of that and they are pretty successful at it. I have never seen those people complain about their dogs on the internet. My favorite quote from one of my trainers was "you train what you've got"
by WiscTiger on 16 March 2009 - 15:03
The thing IMHO about genes and living breathing animals is there are no guanartee's on how the gene are going to match up. Where do you as a breeder decide to not use a certain line. Say you have a sire and dam and you have had two large litters of 10 each. One pup in 20 has EPI, all pups prelimed on hips look good. Would you retain pups for your breeding program? 2 years down the line OFA's are back on 75% (15 dogs) of the dogs from those two litters; out of those you have 2 that are Excellent hips and passing elbows,
8 that are Normal hips and passing elbows,
2 that are fair hip and passing elbows,
1, that had mild HD hips and passing elbows,
1 that are fair hips and one Grade I DJD elbow the other was ok,
1 that had severe HD and Grade II DJD elbows.
If the offsring had everything else you wanted good conformation, good - great woring ability would you continue with the offspring in your breeding program? Oh I forgot to mention solid solid nerves.
I think there is a balancing act with health and working ability. Some times you have to take a little of the bad to get the good. There are no perfect GSD's.
Another point that I read in another post was that the buyer just wanted to share and have the breeder say "I am really sorry what is going on with your dog". Heck when I contacted a breeder about one of my dogs she didn't even use the dogs name. So if a breeder can't communicate with me using the dogs call or registered name it certainly made me fell like they got what they wanted $$ I was left to twist in the wind. Some times buyers just want a sympathetic ear, if they don't get it from the breeder they go looking for it.
by runnernc on 16 March 2009 - 16:03
Unfortunately very few people know enough about genetics (myself included) to know when it's truly appropriate to place blame solely on a breeder for a health issue. It's very easy to get very emotional about these issues, because most of us get very attached to our dogs very quickly and it breaks our hearts when our beloved dogs have health issues. Feeling helpless is a terrible feeling.
Those breeders that offer a guarantee on hips much less any other health issue are truly being generous. If you tried to take these cases to court, you'd be very hard pressed to get any kind of firm decision much less a consensus among veterinarians that would say definitively that HD in a single dog was solely genetic and could not have been caused by the owner running/jumping/overexercising etc., the dog at too young of an age.
I spent 15 years working for a veterinary referral practice in the orthopedic and neurology department - and have heard it all from owners and breeders. For example, I've heard breeders claim that dogs shouldn't go up and down stairs until their growth plates are closed, and veterinarians confirm that this could contribute to HD, and therefore the breeder was not responsible.
If a male and female are bred, 4 times, and out of those 4 litters, 2 pups have a problem, the same problem - is that proof enough to discount that mating entirely? I don't think so, way too many other factors to consider in any type of health or temperment issue.
I have seen one of the dogs x-rays mentioned above, they were poor quality x-rays, their GP vet told them they wouldn't pass, and the owner did get 50% puppy price back - as was written in the contract. The hips did pass, and the owner kept the money. That owner has continued to ask for more money back, based on the the dogs other health problems none of which were covered in the original contract. I do not see how that breeder is at fault. Further, the breeder has offered on mulitple occasions to replace the puppy. Which *is* part of the contract.
Further, someone tell me how you PROVE "NERVES" is genetic. Can you prove me to a puppy owner properly socialized the pup? Until then, I don't see how that claim can be supported at all.
Legal contracts are just that, emotion has to be removed from the equation which most puppy owners cannot do.
It is simply too hard to disengage from that when it's your puppy, your dog, your friend.
While it sucks to have a puppy that isn't 100% healthy, it happens, and there isn't always an easy solution, someone to point the finger at and say - this is a problem and it's your fault "YOU OWE ME."
Personally, I don't get what getting 700 or 800 dollars back would do for the thousands of dollars I would undoubtedly put into my dog if something were to go wrong. Total Hip Replacements are in the thousands of dollars, 700 would be a drop in the bucket., and I wouldn't bother with asking for it. THAT is just my opinion. Did my dog jump before he was 2, yes, the damn dog has springs in his feet and despite my best attempts to keep his butt on the ground, he jumped, a lot.
Could I PROVE (if he had HD) that the jumping he did before his growth plates closed wasn't a factor, no..
I love my dogs, and I believe wholeheartedly, that the breeders I purchased from in the past have done their very best to produce a quality dog, and that they will stand up to the letter of the contract. I would not expect my breeder to start handing me money back because
by runnernc on 16 March 2009 - 16:03
ack! postus interruptus!
....they felt sorry for me. If you had a personal squabble with your breeder and feelings got hurt, that's truly a shame, but it has nothing to do with your contract. Nothing. Contracts are legal documents, that is all.
Lastly, running from board to board, trying to trash people, however you subtley you think you are doing it, says more about YOU than the person you're attacking. If you have a LEGITIMATE case, take it to a court of law, not the court of public opinion.
Gossip and is ugly and small.
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