This is a placeholder text
Group text
by snajper69 on 20 October 2008 - 18:10
Hmmmm, so if the dog doing on his own he is a fear biter but if you train him to do that than he is not? I don't fallow that one Chris.
Bottom line is many dogs react in a different ways, what might be seen by some as a fear might actually be caution, lack of experience, and what it looks like quick respond (bite) might actually be fear. Just my opinion. I like my dog to think and retreat few step backs if need to be and than engage rather than just react. In life (unexpected) scenario I found most dogs move back before engaging, while performing routine they just engage.
by Christopher Smith on 20 October 2008 - 18:10
That may be because you see a dog biting with fear as an absolutly negative thing. I think that it is a natural thing for a dog to bite when he is afraid. When they don't have enough nerves to bite at the right times they are "fear biters".
A few weeks ago I was at a dinner and sat next to a couple of boxers. Both have been world champions. One is undefeated. And both said that they always scared when they have a fight. ALWAYS! Both were under the opinion that fear is one of thier great motivators. Are these fighters cowards?
Fear can be a good thing. That’s why nature gave it to us. IMO, the best dogs in schutzhund are those that see the threat, have the fear and work through the fear using aggression. To me that is a dog with true courage. The trick is to have a dog with the proper nerves and drives to make the fear useful. If the drives and nerves are not right you will have a “fear biter” if the nerves and drives are right you may have the next champion.
by snajper69 on 20 October 2008 - 18:10
Got it Chris. First of all no I didn't think that, I think bite is the most natural thing for a dog :), and I do understand taht there are many degrees of fear. I like my self a dog that works through it. I don't care what is my dog initial reaction, what I care is the final result. If a dog will jump back asses situation and than go after the intruder than I am very happy with a dog like that, if he first attack without even thinking, on an impulse, that dog is still fine with me is just I will understand better his limitation in unfamiliar scenario and adjust my style more to fit him. I do not like impulsive dogs, but I don't write them off, I just learn to work with their limitation.
by Christopher Smith on 20 October 2008 - 18:10
Sorry, you posted and I edited at the same time. I looked at your post again and knew I was wrong about what you thought.
Working with a dogs limitations is something I wish more trainers would learn to do.
by OGBS on 20 October 2008 - 18:10
I don't think that training has a lot to do with the dog flying in to the bite in the courage test. I think that it has more to do with the individual dog than anything else. I have a female from showlines that really flies whenever she bites anything. You can see this in my picture at the right. The helper is giving her a bite after doing the bark and hold (the real courage test). She is jumping straight up here, not running and jumping. She is a smaller, very athletic female. She weighs about 63lbs and is incredibly strong for her weight. While it is impressive to look at I agree with Wallace that it means nothing in the performance.
I will also say this. If you have a dog that is this athletic be very careful to train it with someone who really knows what they are doing. During one training session I was working with a person that was becoming (and is now) a club level helper. He was not a novice, but, still learning. When we did the courage test he was not ready to catch a dog like mine that comes as fast as she does. He did not get in position quick enough and my dog hit him just as he was starting to bring the sleeve in to position. She flew across the sleeve sideways trying to grip it but could not because of the position that he was in. She flew about 15 feet through the air and tumbled probably another 20 feet before she stopped. The national level helper that was training this guy quickly turned and looked at me with his jaw on the ground like "Holy Shit, I am so sorry!" We all started running towards my dog thinking that she probably had broken a leg or her back. Luckily she got back up and ran back to the helper and bit the sleeve. Most importantly she was not hurt. That could have been the end of her Sch career or worse!
By the way, how great is it that we have a man of Wallace Payne's stature posting here to help us answer questions. Please chime in whenever you can!!!
by snajper69 on 20 October 2008 - 19:10
I agree Chris it is very important to understand, and work with dogs limitation. I am lucky enough to work with a person that really knows how to read dogs, and he understand, and is able to tell a dog limitation very quickly, this makes him way more effective, and the whole training a smooth and rewarding experience for all participating.
by Held on 20 October 2008 - 20:10
a fear biter will not go out of his way to bite any one the only time a fear biter bites if it feels cornered in its space.i think u guys are all over the place with this one.and why would you train a fear biter to bite in first place.also dogs do not have the ability to think with logic like you and i can.a fear ful dog is not a courageous dog and if given the chance wiil always flight not fight. that is why most working dog people will not touch most of the show line dogs.
by snajper69 on 20 October 2008 - 20:10
Held I am pretty sure that every dog if corner will bite :) even if he is not a fear bitter, what makes a fear biter is that he will take the simple unthreatening situation as threat to him and react to it by biting :) no one would want to train or own a dog like that. We took the bite out of fear little bit to extreme I agree, what we meant hear that dogs under pressure to some extend feel fear not necessarily it makes them fear biters. :) And just because to some extend they feel fear it dose not mean that they lack courage. :)
by cledford on 21 October 2008 - 01:10
My thoughts - first, very cool that Wallace Payne would post here. Second, on the issue of shepherds "gathering" - I feel in the strong dogs it is more likely tactical move. Someone, out of control in a fight (A brawler or someone simply going berserk) will throw a blow (kick, punch, etc) with little or no thought, strategy, planning or expectation of the next move. A professional would likely never unless reacting instinctually to an unavoidable, unexpected situation. I see most mals (and I'm nobody so who knows if what I "see" is truly the case) so over the top in drive most of the time there is very little thought beyond “what do I do this instant to get what I want?” I see slowing of the good shepherds as more of a martial-arts-esque "how do I take this guy on to have the advantage or at least not miss?" Even if my assumptions are wrong it is obvious one dog is sizing the situation up and thinking through the matter while the other isn't and instead simply acting. Personally, I'd rather have the thinking dog - in the same fashion that I’d prefer to bet on the thinking fighter and not the brawler. I personally don’t feel that throwing ones self with abandon at anything defines courage as much as it show “auto pilot.” Being able to slip in to auto-pilot might not mean a lacking of nerves but I don’t see it indicating presence of character either. Going back to the foundation of the GSD breed, the Schutzhund test was/is fundamentally a test of mutliple facets of character. When SchH became a sport the door opened to mals because (as with all things) their weakness (IMHO) is their strength – they don’t need to be bothered as much by thinking. They simply “do” what led to success and tend to repeat that process easily. This makes for awesome obedience and “correct” protection work. The problem I’ve seen with mals (even the high scoring ones) is a lack of the “character” that the protection process once sought to ferret out. I see a lack of intensity in most mals barking (shows me a lack of emotion and emotional involvement in the “fight”), running wide on blinds and not checking them (shows to me a lack of understanding that a search is really a search, not an exercise to be executed as quickly as possible to get to the helper), a tendency to “go with” the helper on the escape and drives, vs. attempting to “stop” the bad guy. Addressing the “avoiding injury” aspect – does slowing due to having been jammed show a weakness in character any more than trying to avoid being punched in the nose (which leads to diminished air intake from the bleeding and poor visibility due to watering eyes) make one a coward in a fight? If prevailing in the fight is the end goal and not wanting to choke on one’s own blood (which tends to diminish performance) or not wanting to lose vision which would limit ones ability to avoid further blows or land your own isn’t a bad idea, I wouldn’t think in the same vein that some semblance of self preservation is not bad a thing in a dog. If he goes fast and sure, what is the big deal if he chooses to “enter” the critical area of the fray on his own terms? Are we training to promote and preserve the ability to be a guided missile or to be a partner and force multiplier? I know I'm being critical of mals here and and mean no disrespect to anyone. These are just my
by habanaro on 21 October 2008 - 01:10
Different dogs will present themselves differently. It would be wrong to think that every dog should present the same way. A good Rott will present one way, a mal a different way, etc. Even dogs of the same breed will present different pictures on a given exercise. The dogs no matter what breed they are smart enough to work to their advantage whether it be speed or power or whatever. Does not make them good or bad. just different
At this level you are not going to see weak nerved dogs, those dogs probably did'nt make it past the regional or national level
Wallace makes an excellent point. This is one excercise. To get to this level of competition one needs both power and control. The prescision is more important than the power but they are still both needed.
Think of 454 chevelle racing a Z06 corvette both have similar horsepower but on a road track the control and handling of the vette will get you a much better time. (even if the chevelle is a big steamy pile of fun)
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top