hard dogs - Page 2

Spook is 100% correct. How much a dog can handle from either the handler (Collar Correction/Electric/Capping etc) or the Helper (physical & Mental threat type pressure). I had a dog that was so hard nothing could make him cap his drives. He was a Quattro vh Antverpa son. My solid black dog is also as hard as hard gets.. he just loves to work so I have ways to work through it with him "Sometimes Anyway"!!! Best Regards, Dennis Johnson www.johnsonhaus.com

Some very hard dogs are LESS agressive because their threat perception is less sensitive. Drive, instinct, and agression are different. Agression is most frequently a product of the drive to fight and conquer or the drive to defend ones self from a threat. A dogs ability to transition from chasing a non threatening sleeve to fighting a helper for it, and then to face an attack from the helper can be strongly influenced by their hardness together with the strength of their drives. It is important to recognize the different facets of temperament and how they affect training and general lifestyle for dog and handler. Best Wishes, Jonah

Yes, as I stated above, genetics DO play a Major role in hardness. But the raising and training of the pup also counts for much. A poorly raised pup may never show his true potential and an experienced owner can raise a not as hard pup to be much harder than the other pup who was not raised properly. In addition, not every pup in the same litter has the same potential. That is why it is best NOT to buy just from bloodlines only, but to be able to test the pup in person. There is also the problem of dogs/bitches not producing the same hardness as they themselves have. Was this due to excellent training? Or just not passing it along for some other reason? That is also why it is important to research how the dog/bitch are producing. All this combined gives you the best possible route in finding the hardest pup you can. Debby ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net

DJC, I agree, I think. You can enhance or hide many things about a dogs temperment and drive. The problem is, when a dog is pushed to it's limit the true dog comes out. Also, there are many good and even great dog performers who never really produce themselves. Sometimes not anything close to it. This is where kennel blindness really effects this breed. How many times do you see someone who has success with a dog in Schutzhund and then they habitually use that dog for stud in that program, never to reproduce what they initially had. Some of these folks don't know when to stop. There are plenty of groupies who want to breed to that dog on it's reputation, never inderstanding why they failed.

I could not have said it better Spook!! Debby ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net

Jonah, if you would define fight drive. I am a little skeptical as to whether or not it can really be classified as a drive. I know we frequently use the term, but not sure if it is a misnomer. I ask because I usually respect what you have to say. Also, I agree with this statement: "It is important to recognize the different facets of temperament and how they affect training and general lifestyle for dog and handler." The problem is most people are too lazy to try to learn how to read a dog. They either depend on someone else, (who is usually as uninformed as they are) or they attribute human characteristics to the animal (anthropomorphism).

Spook, I have seen a dog like what Jonah is talking about. The dog was just SO confidant and hard that it made it more of a challenge to try to agitate him. Dog's like this do not have a hair trigger and look at their world realistically. Is the helper truly a threat??? Not to this kind of dog, unless you apply more than just the normal kind of agitation. It is true strength of nerve and maybe a little lack of fight/defense drive. Although when these types of dogs do get into the fight it is truly awesome and they are dead serious. Makes the hair on your head/neck stand up! In my mind a dog who goes off on every little thing, could be masking a nerve issue. Or not, it could be high fight drive or just love for the work/bite. But sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. Yes, more pressure will separate out some of the other issues, but A dog with true solid nerves will know what is a true threat and what is not. Debby ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net

Debby, I'm not disagreeing at all. Although once most dogs understand what it takes to get the bite, it becomes fairly easy to 'set them off' (for lack of a better description).

I agree. Once this dog got started and learned the game it was much easier, as he came to enjoy it. But, When someone is looking for a "HARD" dog, they likely would have passed this one by as having no drives. It is just all part of the complicated game of finding that right dog. Debby ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net

I know this will probably be taken wrong, but what I really like about a hard dog is they are very forgiving and by this I mean they thow off a handler error easier than a not so hard dog; conversely, they may be a little slower in getting the desire results.