Fero V Zeuterner Himmelreich - Page 2

I had a blk/red Fero daughter from Waldwinkel kennel in Germany back in 2000-toughest 80lb in-your-face kick-butt female I've ever had. She was like a bull in a china shop in the house, but she was awesome. Superb with the kids; was debarked somewhere out west before we got her, so she squeaked when she tried to bark. Super-high prey drive-would kill cats in one chomp.

I've always noted good clear heads, nice big head and pronounced fight drive in Fero lines personally. Nothing nervy, jumpy, skittish. To me, with a dog expected to turn it off and on, they'd better have clear intelligent heads and breeding or its a walking timebomb. The Fero lines seem to do well. It's just one of those things like with anything-too much of a good thing can potentially genetically turn messy.

I have another solid black 13 mos old girl right now name Anni. She's line-bred 4-5 on Fero but has him within 6 generations 4x via Othello Karthago, Timmy vd bosen Nachbarschaft( grandsire to Nick Heiligensbosch), Bojar Salztalblick, & Cliff Helo. So I have some expectations out of this promising spitfire girl, excellent with the family, too but willing to charge into about anything. Having Fero in her 4x does not seem to have hurt her one bit. :o)

Your original post was "what does Fero bring to the table" I feel having observed the dog in various phases, its the fight drive which this dog brings the maximum to the table. Which is lacking a lot in modern day dogs. Also a degree of Social Aggression. The wonderful fight which the dog gives to the agitator is phenomenal.

cheers

These ratings are derived from SV data.  Fero's not-so-hot EBV was 44.73%, at the broader base of the hip-improvement curve and among dozens of equals within half a percent, whereas his single grandson, Aly vom Vordersteinwald, holds an indisputable record of "the best" @ 73.51% that the SV has had to offer (among studs, and in excess of 50 progeny).

This one, http://www.ehretgsd.com/topsport3.html, is a compilation of BSP, WUSV, and USA Nationals (1999-2006) by Louise Jollyman, and color coded by me (WIP) to help indicate bloodlines. From the list, you can click on the dog's name to follow a link to the full pedigree.

It should be noted that the inclusion of 2007 & 2008 competitors under the same criteria, dogs achieveing a V score in protection (96+) with at least SG overall (270+), would be a very short list.   Fero lines are behind approximately 16% of the competitors pedigrees in this 8 year study.

My supposition is that the prepotent strengths and refinements of a dog's traits are sometimes best expressed (and improved upon) in examples of loose linebreeding, but through best known sons and grandsons (like Timmy & Troll...Aly & Yoschy).  For example, line breeding on T-litter vd bösen Nachbarschaft produces some very strong performers, as in the example of the 1st place and 2nd place winners of the BSP 2008 (EACH of whom also had full littermates that participated and placed well!)

Similarly, I expect Yoschy to have a more profound effect on the breed in the years to come.  Fero had good grasps and natural aggression, and though I understand Troll and Yoschy were a slight different as far as desire to work and controllability go, both had good grasps and outstanding attack speed.  There seem to be fewer "tricks" in sport training to compensate for these essential qualities in working ability, as compared to tracking and obedience, where a crafty trainer can make a difference.

It then becomes a delicate balancing act of whom to breed to with what results you have, with certain genetic reinforcements and compensations to be made along the way.  What is "brought to the table" can significantly change in the course of 19 years, with different matings, and with each generation.

It's nice that the role of the female gender has taken a significant stand in the perception of importance to the breeder, but my concern is many people have taken that notion a bit too far.  I was astonished to find that some people believe that the male has little significance at all in the continuation of heritable character.  That is simply not true, and if you breed more than a litter every few years, you will find out for yourself.  It's not as simple as 50% from the sire, 50% the dam either, or 80/20 genetic/environmental for that matter.  Each gender is equivocally important, and will affect the longterm gene population and the immediate progeny in different but potent ways.

Here's a rough key to the color coding of bloodlines I used in the EBV-list and the Jollyman list.  Greif was split into two lines for this one, and while he was largely influential for the EBV-list and rated well himself as a hip producer, his count of only 99 progeny disqualified him for that listing.

Blue: Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
>>>>&g

for my personal knowledge what is a T-litter?

Can you tell me? I don;t know.

thx

Just short for T-litter vd bösen Nachbarschaft, a linebreeding of same parents, not just a single parent, that produced Timmy and Troll.

oh!!! That way :) I thought I was missing on some breeding terminology

cheers

I have that dog on both dam and sire side of my pup, now 8 months, as well as others mentioned on this thread, like Yoshy and Troll Nachbarshaft. Pedigree here: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6/557696.html

Fero is sort of far back in the pedigree that I don't know if he brings much to the table, he is the great great great grandfather I believe, but observing the father and the mother of the pup there is definitely some traits that can be atributed to this great dog. The guy that posted all those fancy colored tables, statistics, percentages and data etc... sure impressed me as well. As far as the main question what does he brings to the table? Dunno yet, the pup is too young, but mother and father, especially the sire, are tough dogs that demand helper's respect when doing work with them and are intense.

Hope that helps some.

"The guy that posted all those fancy colored tables, statistics, percentages and data etc... sure impressed me as well."

Before that gets taken out of context, as happens so often on this board with personal attacks, let me state:  I'm not a know it all, if I come across that way.  My intention is to be helpful, not a show-off.  Many here have probably seen Fero for themselves in the flesh, while I was still attending grade school.  I just tend to view things from a different perspective than the majority of people.  Some find it refreshing, others find contempt for me.  If the information is useful, and not too sugar-coated with subjective input, I find more value in it.  If you ever disagree with my views, then say so, and with rationality.  I won't take personal offense.

Fero's genetic contributions are behind ~28% of the hip study and ~16% of the competition study (far more than ANY other producer of recent times). But was he really so great in himself, or was the "best of him" derived at in his progeny and grand-progeny, with a little help from the gals? With improved results, better than he himself could have been?  Was he over-popular, and if so, what equal alternatives were available that could have sustained that popularity?

daryehret first of all I would like to thank you for taking your time to teach me few things. Much appreciated. I find your info useful and something that I been looking for for quite some time. Much appreciated. In my opinion Fero was not overrated at all. Used too much maybe. I like what Fero brings to the table, and what I noticed that his progeny either brings similar things or improves on it. I think this dog had a great impact on the breed. Once again thank you for your detailed explanation.