The breed progresses, an interesting article - Page 2

Sure, your dribble is the same dribble and debate, debate, debate that we saw on the NASS thread. After a few people told you you're clueless, you go ahead and admit you didn't have the slightest idea what you were talking about and didn't care.....

Is it asking you too much to research and comprehend a subject before you comment on it?

Dog1, I haven't read the article yet either, though I was planning to (I am a 'friend' of Louis Donald's on FB) but my immediate reaction on seeing this thread was (to quote someone most of us know):

SSDD!! 

Let's see if I change my mind after having read it....

Again someone is clueless and it's not me.  I said on the Nass thread that the only way you would know is to find out why the members left and that I didn't care enough to follow up on that.

Yes if you can't keep simple little facts like that straight it's no wonder that you have no clue what a statistical mean is and what they plan to do with it. 

You talk big with no real insight or knowledge so please dazzle us with your brilliance on the subject matter or is it just your typical baffle them with bS routine that you are trying again?

Okay, have now read it and am shaking my head. I agree fully with what Louis did at that Australian show: dropped an oversized dog by 3 places in the standings.

Oversized is oversized. For the sake of the breed, the 'elastic measuring stick' must go!

The breeder of my female, Star, found her father, a son of th great Ursus von Batu tended to throw oversized pups. (Star is about 1 inch oversized.) As a result, he only used him twice for breeding, after spending big bucks to buy him, import him, and get him certified for use as a stud under AKC rules.

That's the sort of backbone breeders need to have. If they don't have it, the SV needs to legislate it, instead of letting the monkeys continue to run the zoo!! 

Back and forth off topics STOPS NOW, first and only warning. This is the last time a thread will be hijacked with personal insults, READ THE TOS, if you can't abide by them then further action will be taken against offending members. This has become so boring when members start the rude comments, no more thanks.

Keep to the topic in hand or I will edit/delete unnecessary off topic comments.

    I believe this is a smart and rational approach to controlling the problem. I also believe Herr Quoll to be sincere in this endeavour and I believe he has the ability to carry this through. I am amazed how people get stuck in the past and are not involved in the present have a strong opinion of the future.

    I gather from this a dog that is shown oversized will have an effect on other dogs since this is being administered similar to the ZW program. This alone should give breeders a reason not to enter an oversized dog. 

Amen, Darcy. Always the same rude parties involved who take all the joy out of posting here.

I think back almost 10 years ago to a conversation I was having with a breeder, one of the breeders on the committee. He was discussing a conversation he recently had with Peter Messler about an up and coming male. Mr. Messler's opinion was the dog was too big and shouldn't even be considered a German Shepherd. This breeders response was; Watch what I can do with this dog.

Just three generations later he bred World Champion and VA Leo.

The problem with just letting the measuring stick be the stick is it doesn't work. Can't work. It creates more problems than it fixes. The article goes into detail as to why this fix doesn't work and I'll add a couple more. First it addresses only the height, the rest of the dimensions and proportions are not addressed. The shape of the German Shepherd changes. Second is it's too restrictive. Many of the better examples were being lost to Germany.

Rather than eliminate the tools and resources a breeder has to work with, the SV is in the process of devising a system similar to the ZW system. Excellent specimens are not eliminated but categorized and put into a system that acknowledges all dogs are not perfect. This gives the breed another resource. How is this bad?

The combination of larger size and overangulation (which weakens the rear) is affecting the agility and working ability of the SL dogs. I see this all the time at training: they big, pretty black and red dogs have great difficulty with the jump and A-frame. Good thing the scaling wall was eliminated: no way would they be able to jump that!

For five years, the limits are off so that they can collect all data.  Five years is 2 generations of dogs to go up in size.  Then the difference with the ZW for hips is that it utilizes offspring for the mean.

Have not seen anything that states this for the new system.

Instead they will be measuring dogs in the youth classes which will skew the data small to start with,  Each measuring for each dog goes into their own respective data pool.  It will take longer for the data to be corrected to an accurate adult number.  A statistical mean gives equal weight to all measurements.  If a breeder were to show a young dog say 10 times then show him five times as an adult, he could be massively oversized but you wouldn't know it because his five adult measurements would be averaged with his 10 youth measurements and they won't have enough weight to move the number up.