by havidad on 08 July 2014 - 03:07
The thing that deterred me from them was ultimately if I decided that I wanted to go into the AKC ring with the dog, the Kimbertal name on the dog would precede it in a bad way.
by rtdmmcintyre on 08 July 2014 - 10:07
I have always been a heavy Doberman person. Hans I personally don't know anything about this kennel as factual. But doing internet research years ago they appeared to have the same sort of reputation as Valmar kennels in Georgia. And it was that they would buy Champion dogs and bitches and then breed them. I don't know that it was true but Valmar had the reputation of buying people's whole litters then reselling them under their kennel name by switching papers. Like I said I don't know any of it to be fact. But everyone always is told to do internet research before buying a dog. And when researching Kimbertal there is such a high negative that if a person who didn't personally know them and bought a dog from them they would be taking serious chances. Maybe the kennel changed Darastically over the years. I have had Dobies for over 35 years and I have heard of Kimbertal that whole time with a negative reputation. Hans when you were there did they title any of their own dogs or did they buy them as already titled champions?
by Prager on 08 July 2014 - 15:07
They have bought the highest international champions studs from Europe. As far as I know Nita titled some dogs before my time. I do not know if their daughter or son or Bob titled any dogs. All I am saying is what I remember and know. There may have been more titling going on. I do not know.... Kimbertall hired foreign trainers all the time and some may title their dogs. They also give pretty big cash rewards to people who titled dogs who originated in Kimbertal. The amount rewards were up to the price of the dog. Pretty generous if you ask me. As far as females they sold the best pups on breeder's terms to approved people on breeder's terms for reduced (1/2) price There was waiting list for people who wanted to be foster parents. It was a decent deal which involved pick of the litter for 1/2 price. The Yarnalls were on papers as coowner or maybe owners( I do not know) of the female. The deal was, if I remember correctly, that when the bitch came into heat the owner had to bring the female for breeding to one of Kimbertal 's studs. Then the foster family kept the female and whelped the pups and kept them for less then 8 weeks. ( I do not remember how many. It may have been 6-7) They had to bring the pups for cropping and ducking and shots All pups got free shots up to full immunization at 4 mo. For the trouble the foster home could keep 1 or 2(?) pups from the litter, dependent on the size of the litter and do with such pups what ever they wanted. I think one of the deals was that Bob decided on one pup which the fosterer could not have. 1st pick was for Kimbertal. That led to many upset fosterers. The deal was for 2 ( or 3?) litters and then the papers were signed to the buer. The Kimbertal x rayed all dogs used for breeding. When I was there Bob let me do research on x raying pups as young as 4 weeks and up and he paid for it. All older dogs for sale were x rayed. Also the buyer had a chance to get their dog trained in basic obedience and protection for reasonable and for Kimbertal dogs discounted price. Dogs stayed at Kibertal for few weeks (2-4) for foundation training where the young dog learned basic minimum and then went home and owner then could come at least 3 x but could continue coming for free for the rest of the dog's life 1x per week. Protection had similar timeline scheduler.
As far as pissed off owners goes I'll say that Kimbertal sold literally thousands of pups and dogs. Thus if you take 5% or less which were upset for one reason or another then there will be a lot of pissed off people. 5% or less of dissatisfied customers is acceptable number and I will say that during the time I was there almost 1/2 year. I have not seen many upset clients. It was definitely less then 5% . On the other hand there were 95% + or thousands of happy customers with decent dogs. Warranty was spelled clearly and bob stick to it rigidly. If you did not like the warranty you were adviced not to buy a dog there. However people did and then when something went wrong they were surprised that Bob went by the book.
To go on internet and look for any kennel large or small who was in business for 51(!!!) years and not to have on internet dissatisfied customers is silly. If you would go by that standard advice you would not be able to purchase a dog except from back yard breeder. The happy customers rarely go on internet and say that they are happy. You have striving sites like ripoff .com but I have to see Happyhappyhappy.com Also, because of this thread due to nostalgia I went on Google and looked at those "dissatisfied" clients. 99.9% of them were the ones just parroting what they found on internet or it was a hearsay. Same as the OP here. " I know of , heard of, I did a research on Internet ,.... " That type of a BS. Kicked them wile they are down and while everybody is kicking. Chicken sh1t type stuff.
I have also seen complains against Kimbertal from rescues. hey claimed that they got more dogs from Kimbertal then from any other source thus Kimbertal is bad. Not the people dumping their dog but Kimbertal. Go figure! Well yes Kimbertal sold more dogs then anyone thus more dogs in rescues. Kimertal has in their warranty ( even now ) under point 1!!!! Here I quote:
1. Lifetime Satisfaction Guarantee
If at any time during the life of a Kimbertal Doberman or Rottweiler, the pup is found not to be compatible with the situation of the original purchaser, the pup may be returned (along with their AKC certificate) to the kennel, and be replaced at no charge. The owner’s “word” is all that is needed for the replacement.
There Here is their warranty:
I have personally trained the returned dogs and they were resold for very reasonable prices. Some where humanely put down if they were messed up beyond repair. Thus there was no need for any dogs to end up in rescues. The returned dogs got generally better shake in Kimbertal then they would get in most rescues.
Bob and Nita genuinely loved their dogs and Bob truly loved his wolves.
I know that kennels and dogs were inspected by health department up on request of Kibertal or by surprise visits and they always got approved with highest points. So call them puppy mill if you want,. but by what standards. Kennels were very clean and dogs were always in top shape.
I know that I sound like defender of the kennel and yes I am,... what is fair is fair. I'll say it one more time.There was no love lost between me and Bob Yarnall. Actually I had a big conflict with him. But I will not say much bad about the kennel even so I do not care much for Dobes and Rotts and I did not care for the oversize dogs they produced especially as far as Rott's go. But people like big dogs so go figure. I, liked better their Dobes. I got along well with his son, daughter, wife and all employees. Eventually I quit during argument with Bob. There was no love lost between me and Bob. Bob was a "slave driver" and no trainer would last there longer then 4 mo. I was there for about 6. ( if I remember correctly ) and at that time that was some king of a record. Bob himself worked extremely hard and I have never seen him just walking . He was like super driven sport dog he either slept , if he ever did, or run and expected the same form others. There was no privacy there and Bob would supposedly record all phone conversations. ( no cell phones than) kennel provided room and board. Little apartment with kitchen and blank check to dollar store and small salary and commissions. All in all not bad for young dog trainer.
by havidad on 08 July 2014 - 15:07
I will say this, they do have some nice looking dogs for the untrained eye. Just like people fawn over my GSD when I go to the park like he is the best looking dog on the planet.
I just think the temperaments are suspect and they dont really breed strategically.
by rtdmmcintyre on 08 July 2014 - 15:07
so most of their females that they bred were untitled females from their foster families? If that is the case even though well taken care of and well loved ability or how close they were to conformation wasn't really a factor. So not a lot different then a back yard breeder in that aspect? Most of the information that I had was more from those in the AKC show circles. My experience with Doberman's predates person computers and the internet. dang I hate getting older.
Hans please understand I am not questioning your word, ability or intentions. And I'm not questioning theirs either. I have no information that I can say is factual that is why my statements are in question form and not in accusations.
by Prager on 08 July 2014 - 15:07
.All my info is first hand but of course it is not complete. I am saying wht I have seen and I have no interest in this other then truth,...that is even so you could say that I had ax to grind. But that is not the way I am. Even so I almost punched Bob before I quit, now I would no mind to come there and say hi and shake his hand. He is an hard ass abut he is also a man to be admired for hes perseverance and business savvy and . I was working there several month and I do not know everything about them. As far as foster females they were pick of the litter chosen from best litters. The females would not be bred if they did not fit the scheme of Kibertal standard. To say that they were not different then back yard breeders is to assume pretty high standard for back yard breeders. lol
No their female in general were not titled. but they were always of the highest quality. You may say that they did it for money. And yes that did. But they did it by the way of producing high quality desirable dogs.
As far as temperament goes , I was a trainer there and temperament of the pups was all around super. They were really well socialized by the foster family and were handled in strange environments by strangers during routine examinations , shots and when they did for them eras and tails and taped the ears at Kimbertal. Those pups had more exposure and socialization then most pups will ever have.
The older dogs were sometimes screwed up by their owners but that was rare and it was usually dogs who were returned for lack of interest. People who kept them and came for the training had dogs usually really well adjusted and they had high level of trainability for protection which is mare then I can say for today Doberman which are bred mostly by bunch of blue haired ladies. This is no way an attack on blue haired ladies but on the type of dobes bred today . Which have personality of a lamb and not of good Doberman. .
by havidad on 08 July 2014 - 16:07
This is what ultimately made me uncomfortable with the operation.
My daughter was born when the dog was 8. When she was 2 (he was 10) he growled at her and it made my wife uncomfortable with him in the house. I didnt want to surrender him, because I knew he was a great dog (passed CGC multiple times, no other issues aside from occasional food aggression), it was just new to him and he was old. Either way, I referred to my Lifetime Satisfaction Guarantee and decided to call Bob, maybe he could let him live out his days on the facility.
When I told Bob how old my dog was (10), he said "Wow, he's still alive?"...Then he proceeds to say, "Just keep him crated up or outside, if you turn him in to me, I am just going to put him down like I do most of them". Also note that the dog cannot be neutered or spayed, so its almost like, if the dog can't be of any breeding value, then he don't want them back. He shouldnt advertise that then.
If you like some of their dogs, you can usually find a BYB who has litters from their dogs and will sell for a fraction of the price. Probably will be of similar quality.
by joanro on 08 July 2014 - 16:07
Within a six month period of a new employee, how many dogs were returned and needed to be 're-trained and 're-homed? That seems to be a regular occurrence ( returning dogs). Sounds like they need to have a better method of deciding appropriate owners. But if they sells hundreds of puppies a month, finding that many good owners would be next to impossible, so high return rate would stand to reason.
In the sixties, I was looking to get a Dobie, and Kimbertal was always high profile in Dog World ads. But family friends who were n the dog fancy for many years advised me against them...don't remember the reason, but when I did get a Dobie, it wasn't from Kimbertal.
by rtdmmcintyre on 08 July 2014 - 17:07
we always say that a dog needs to be tested in some way to prove that they are fit for breeding. If they aren't breeding for conformation or work then what was the standard that they were breeding for? How could anyone tell if they were a good fit if there was no established standard for their breeding. We talk about working GSDs there are multiple standards that a person might breed for and it gives a buyer an idea of what to look for out of the pups. ie herding, IPO, police work, PPD, conformation, etc. obviously a person who is wanting a good herding dog probably isn't going to go to the conformation lines. why would breeding Dobermans be different? For me it wasn't. I always wanted health certificates, I wanted to see CH before almost every single parent back several generations. both sides. But I also wanted to see some obedience titles and hopefully some tracking titles behind the name. That would be one reason for most not to buy from a breeder like Kimbertal. If the mothers were never titled, how would a person know what their ability or conformation would be?
by Prager on 08 July 2014 - 17:07
Well Bob is Bob and I believe that what he said. At least he told you the truth.After all in the end it was you who were dumping a 10(!!!) year old dog who served you well and I am not going to pass moral judgment on that. But to put dog like that into a kennel situation would probably kill him. The fact is that nowhere in the warranty it says that they will keep the dog and let him live till he dies of natural cases. That and what Bob said does not reflect bad on him but on you. JMO. In my opinion Bob told you what he told you in order to shock you into doing the right thing. Which is to keep the dog who loves you and lived with you for 10 years . Keep him and let him live his last days in a an environment he is used to rather then put him in a kennel . I would probably tell you the same thing. In the end I would take the dog in and let him live as I did many times. But his advice was sound. Keep the dog and keep your kid who drives him nuts away from him.