Big breeders ? - Page 1

Okay, as most of you know, I´m German. In my country a kennel ( SV ) isn´t allowed to produce more than 10 litters/year. Some breeders do circumvent this rule by creating new kennel names with wifes/ sons/ daughters as owners, but most of the breeders over here do produce 1 - 5 litters/year.

What I want to know - What´s a "big" breeder for you?

For me 5 litters/year is a lot - everybody breeding more litters for me is a "big" breeder, although I do distinguish. In my country it´s common that there are kennel teams. There is one breeder, but several team member breeding for the same kennel name. That said, the litters are raised in a normal environment, well socialized - only the kennel name is the same, and the "breeder" chooses the stud and is responsible for the puppies. Absolutely okay for me.

In my opinion ( and that´s my PERSONAL opinion ) it´s impossible to raise more than 5 litters/year on your own. I think socialization is very important, a litter of pups needs a lot of time. A good breeder wants to keep a puppy by himself, but the more dogs, the less time for each one. 5 litters = at least 3 adult bitches and some puppies/ green dogs. That´s a lot....

What do you think?

Sometimes it depends on how many people are involved with the dogs; I know a few breeders who have large families (6-8 kids) and everyone is involved in caring for and training/titling the dogs. These breeders generally produce about 5-6 litters a year and I would not say that it is to much for them to handle.

I try to go case by case; I don't dismiss a breeder because they have a lot of dogs, but rather how well the dogs appear and how active the breeder is in training, titling, health testing, etc...I do prefer to go with a smaller family breeder though, someone who keeps their senior dogs because they are beloved; not the huge kennels that turn over their breeding stock every few years because the dogs are no longer capable of making money for them.

Northern, I can guarantee you, it is NOT just the big  breeders that dump their dogs off when they  can no longer  make them money.

   I have found mire than plenty greedy small kenneks that do it...disgusting behavior...pure GREED!

Kitkat, I am aware it is not just the big breeders who dispose of their dogs when their breeding career is over. I merely said I prefer to go with a breeder that keeps their senior dogs as beloved family members; a practise that is, unfortunately, very uncommon in both large and small breeders.

I have known quite a few serious breeders here in the UK, some of them 'bigger' than

others in terms of successes, numbers of litters, etc.  One thing almost all of them

have had in common is that they retain one or more of their oldies around their home;

and they know who & where others are retired to, so although  not everyone can manage

to keep every dog they ever owned, I feel the willingness and concern is usually there.  

Conversely. while I have met a few 'casual' breeders who still have an elderly dog or two around,

a heck of a lot more do not seem to hang onto individual dogs (bitches) past about 4 yrs old.

Susie - Personally, I call kennels that produce 5+ litters a year a 'commercial kennel'. I got my current dog from such a place in Frankfurt. They do exactly what you describe, have one kennel in their name and the other in their wife's name. This made me hesitant at first, but everyone i spoke with her vouched for the kennel and breeder and continued to state they produce some fantastic dogs and are honest about their stock. I still wonder at times if i made the right decision going with that kennel but am quite happy with my mutt. I have pondered this same subject and have wondered if a breeder can produce high quality GSDs if they are doing this for the money and i believe they can. I think of people like Karl Fuller, his kennel produced some very good HGH dogs through out the years and he used his kennel as both a commercial kennel and stock that he used to run his 800+ sheep. Tiekerhook has/had 6 planned litters this year, which in MY OPINION puts them on "my" commercial list, but that is another proven kennel who breeds for both quality and profit, again just my opinion.

I guess my main concern would be how they raise the puppies.  Unless you can go to kennel directly and meet puppies/people how do you know?  That is why I would not buy sight unseen and I hope other people pay attention to this;  socialization, all sorts of puppy training, along with good health practices not only with puppies but with their dam prior to breeding. 

I do not see anything wrong with placing a retired brood bitch after her breeding is done but only one in good health and to forever homes.  Good luck  NAn

My personal opinion

I don't let groups or government regulations determine what I think.  So what one group would call a big breeder to me isn't set by the number of litters they have a year.  But rather they way in which their operation is run.  A big breeder or commercial breeder to me would be a kin do a puppy mill but probably a better environment.  A particular Doberman and Rott breeder comes to mind but I won't mention their name.  They don't meet the puppy mill standard because they do keep clean kennels and their pups are in relatively good health.  But their motive is profit.  On the other hand I know breeders who produce several litters per year is there a profit?  yes but they are keeping pups out of the litter trying to see if that pup will turn into something special.  If it doesn't it is then sold to a good home.  But their breeding stock is ones whom they are using to try to bring about something better into their program.  So to me it has more to do with their motive and intentions then in a particular count on litters produced.

Agree with Reggie and Northern Maiden. 

I don't care if someone has 10 litters a year or only one- what do they DO with those pups when they're with them? I have seen what I'll delicately refer to as....oh.... I'll just say it- white trash backyard breeders masquerading as "caring hobby/family breeders" only raising 1-2 litters per year, but the pups are whelped in the basement, a nasty old garage, etc. or ignored in a kennel and there is no advantage over a commercial kennel with a lot of help. A commercial kennel with GOOD help can likely tell a buyer more about a particular pup's temperament than  a greedy BYB who puts up a pretty website to fool people and then does literally nothing with the pups. Hell, I've seen "hobby breeders" who by 6 weeks of age still cannot tell the pups apart without collars. Granted, the all black litters can be tricky, lol, but if you spend time with them every day, if they're in your midst 24/7, you know each one front and back, top to bottom, if not by physical appearance, then by movement and expression or sound. 

I'm not putting down another's whelping protocol, but even though I do have a nice little building and puppy pen, I want them in the house the first month. I NEED to see the birth, the time between birth and nursing, the overall vigor of each pup, early behavior patterns, etc. in order to make educated placement decisions. I am sure there are people who are better at it than I am, but I personally could not raise more than 2 litters simultaneously and have the same thorough understanding of each pup as an individual. So, for me, the limit is 2 at once, and "per year" doesn't mean much. 

I don't put much stock in some people's definition of "raised in the home" because all too often I've seen that and learned it really referred to a block of crates or 3 whelping boxes in a nasty old basement of someone's farmhouse. Hence, I do not condemn a commercial or "big" breeder on litter number per year. There are many outside factors. Talk to a breeder on the phone and ask them the right questions and you'll learn a lot more than you ever will from their website or FB page. It's real easy to find out how well they know their dogs if you know what to ask. 

It depends. Even if they are good, with that many litters, personally, I still think of them as puppy mills with a paintjob, but that is just me.

I'm from Germany too, living in the US for four years now. So I'm seeing both sides of the pond...things over here are by far more out of control than they are in Germany, that's for sure.