Weaker rear end - Page 1

I have a 12 year old GSD, Ronin, who is related to my Loki that died of DM years ago.  Ronin is negative for DM but has always had a weaker rear end.  We have countered it with swimming, massage, etc.  He has always had an intersting stance and had minute sloppiness with movement in his rear end.  Lately he has started to have issues with tile floor (I am investing in area rugs with rubber bottoms to spread around the tile in the areas they run and play in).  Any ideas for strengthening his back end?  I used to take him swimming in the intercoastal but recently there have been warnings posted because of severe issues with listeria.  I usually avoided the intercoastal when there was traces of red tide but now the listeria has reaced ridiculous proportions.  Any links or ideas will be welcome.  He is able to squat for #2 without walking and raises a leg for marking although lately he just stands.
 

Ronin  is 12.  My 11 year old is starting to go the same way.  My

previous bitch was 14 when she departed, she'd had similar

difficulties for a couple of years prior.  They are like people -

they get old and they start to wear out !  Only in a dog the life-

span is so much shorter, so when (if) our dogs get to be elderly,

we see the results quicker.  You cannot hold back time;  you

can medically ease any pain etc, but you cannot make old

muscles and ligaments and nerves become young and strong again,

It is a credit to you - and anyone with an older dog - that you

have given this animal a lifestyle that has allowed him to live a

strong and healthy existence into old age;  many dogs are not as

lucky.  

PS :  is he still jumping on your kitchen counter to steal peanut

butter ?  Can't be all that weak !     And ... are there no indoor

dog hydrotherapy pools in reach, so you might continue swimming

him ?

Mindhunt,

Unfortunately you can NOT at this point based on the dna test rule out DM. Have you tried the old foot knuckle test? "Knowledge of leg position - the dog should right its foot immediately, if the foot is placed toes down, rather than pad down. If the dog does not right its foot immediately, and stands or walks on its toes, this is known as "knuckling".

The reason I say you can not rule it out is we KNOW of several GSDs that tested clear but died of DM as proven by necropsy. Plus I was discussing with my vet who is great - knowledgeable, pragmatic and both a large and small animal practioner- the bad science that is rampant in the dog world these days and specifically addressed the several problematic areas with this test ( wh/ I will not go into right now because I do not want to hijack this away from thoughts on your dog) when he told me he had another client with a Boxer who supposedly was tested clear but had all the signs and symptoms of classic Boxer DM and he had seen a few - interesting considering that to my knowledge their DM is different from GSD Dm and coincidently this test was specifically designed for Boxer/Corgi DM so yet again another question is raised.

Have you been able to rule out any other neurological diseases or disk problems thru testing? Be careful tho MRI with dye can adverserly affect a dog with DM so without knowing for sure it's a hobson's choice about taking the test. Was he xrayed wehn younger - anything out of the ordinary - extra vertebae, cauda equina? There are also some metabolic diseases that affect muscle function and some supplements that can sometimes make a big difference. Could it be a ligamentation problem not muscle? You mentioned he has always had some sloppiness. In the past I knew there were a number of ASL dogs that had very very loose ligamentation - to the point that you wondered what strange alchemy held them together. There are some exercises to strengthen ligaments tho again can't speak to the effectiveness. Can you post his pedigree. Maybe one of us might spot something that would shed some light. Also is he currently on any meds or supplements?

As noted older dogs AND people tend to lose muscle mass with aging. Have you noticed this with him at all? An old timers trick to build muscle mass and endurance in young dogs is to walk them in sand especially if it can be uphill. I've never used it myself so can't speak to the effectiveness but before trying I'd get your vet's opinion if it might help or hurt. If he is losing muscle mass due to age there may not be too many solutions to that. FYI my youngest dog had to have knee surgery last year thanks to the squirrel in my back yard and my vet(mentioned above) said the best thing I could do for her recovery was just plain walks ( much like they have found works for humans too) and if possible hilly walks ( a very difficlut proposition since I live in the CA Central Valley which is Hot(already in the 100s) dry, brown and flat as a pancake. Knock on would so far she has had a great recovery.

One final thought and a tough one. I have found longevity is highly heritable and can be easily chosen for. Do you have much knowledge of the dogs in his pedigree and their families and do you know the average life expectancy and what disease they tend to die of. Again same as in humans, families tend to die of certain things. In both my dad and mom's families heart, hi  blood pressure and stroke are the biggies. In other families it's cancer or a specific type of cancer or parkinson's or dementia. In all my decades in GSD I have found the most common end of life issues are hemangiosarcoma, mast cell tumours, congestive heart failure and DM. It's the rare dog that just dies of old age tho there are a lucky few and we can hope that Ronin will be one of them. Good luck and keep us posted.

Excellent advice, Tig.

BTW, re ASL, I spent part of yesterday watching a breeder gait some of his young ASL dogs. Some of them move the way my male (who appears to be German working lines) moves at 12 years!  He's starting to have issues with his back end, and knuckles under now and then.

I believe Ronin is a GWL, not an ASL. At 12 years of age there may not be a lot that can be done to strengthen his rear other than walking him on sand or another soft surface. It's all part of the normal aging process.

There are some strengthing exercises for DM I got through Starrchar;  I will try to find them.  I used them to strengthen my almost 15 year old girl, NO DM  but due to age was loosing some muscle mass and tone.  I started the exercises as well as walking her up and down a neighborhood hill daily and in a couple of months time she improved dramatically.  Even when she died (6 weeks shy of 15 years old) she was able to walk a steady l/2 mile a day and probably could have done more but I did not want to push her.  The most positive results were with the resistance training techniques;  also lifting one leg at a time and hold for a few seconds then do the other legs.  All four legs.  Then for the rear I used the method of putting my fist on the dogs hind quarter and have them push against my hand and I started teaching this by massaging the area first then they know it feels good and naturally push against your hand;  basically I used my knuckles.  They love it.  I will say that is probably the most noticeable difference after a short time that helped my girl.  She was not a foofoo girl so didn't like being messed with too much but loved  all of these exercises.  Actually died of sinus/nasal tumor.  So this is nothing you cannot do yourself and it only takes a few minutes a day to really help them.   

Also I used salmon oil with Vit E capsule to help with natural inflammation for the old guys, and I really feel it did its job for them.  You want to strengthen all ligaments/tendons and anything that holds that rear together;  sandy walks, swim if you can, resistance training, soft surfaces for any and all exercises, no jumping or fast starts also are hard on the knees especially with these big guys.  This is going to take some effort on your part but the payoff for my girl was hugh and bought her probably a couple of years of comfort and good health.   I even had to keep my girl off the bed as she jumped off and really seemed to hurt her shoulders and of course her rear end.

PS:  forgot to mention that my girl was also on a raw diet from age 11 but about 14 she was not able to chew bone anymore so I found a premixed raw diet (K9 Kravings) that was balanced ground with meat/vegi's/bone so she was on that but I also used raw chicken feet which help with collegan, among other things; all which help strengthen and maintain those tendons/ligaments/muscle that holds everything together.    Not saying you will see HUGH benefits but all helps to maintain and strengthen.  And as far as the raw diet goes she was the reason why I started all my guys on raw and what got me researching everything, she was my project sort of speak as she taught me all about how most to help her and what it took to maintain an older dog;  although each and everyone are different in their needs, strengthening is key and most helpful to all dogs in one way or another.

Best of luck  Nan 

Thank you all of you who offered sage advice, some not fun to read but realistic.  Ronin is the produce of American showlines with Eastern European Border Patrol lines if my breeder is any indication.  He was a rescue at 6 months from a very abusive home.  He is related 5 generations back to my male that suffered from severe and aggressive DM.  Ronin passes the Knuckle test and will not tolerate the overturned back foot. He used to climb fences, ladders, and had the vet terrified that he would jump from the top of a 18 foot cyclone fence with 2x6 across the top.  He has always had a bit of a tilt to his back end.

Ronin never enjoyed swimming so we would run him in shallow water chasing balls.  I massage his rear end and have a neighbor who is trained in massage therapy.  Ronin's OFAs were Fair without any indications of dysplasia. He has always had a weird stance and been ultra althetic with feats of jumping and climbing that are rather mindblowing.  Maybe is it just me having a hard time accepting his aging.  I tried to post the latest pictures but received an error message of file too big (took the above pictures with the same camera phone as the ones I tried to post, who knows). I will try again later (I have found if I am patient, I can post additional pictures).  The joys of having a great dog that is aging........

I agree mindhunt, it is heartwrenching to watch especially when there really is nothing you can do...  just sucks.  Just keep him in motion with gentle walks.  My older girl would not swim either, hubs ACCIDENTIALLY  backed into her and she fell into our pool when she was 4 months old, he of course got her right out, BUT since then she would not get near water.  Show baths were OK as she loved to show but swim, absolutely not.  Shows to go ya, huh...  Great days ahead for your and your boy.  Nan

He has always had a little tilt to his stance, these are his latest, he loves sitting by the window looking out

He and Isis sleep against each other often.

Really I think he looks excellent for 12 years old, have to remember just these guys size alone when aging can cause them issues;  their historical background of working, running, cavorting, jumping and all other things they do tend to catch up with them about your boys age and really for most of these big guys even earlier.  Keep up the good work with him, he looks great.  Nan