Price of a Dog - Page 3

IMO the price of a breeding dog depends on many things. First and foremost, what health checks has it had and what were the results? Hips, elbows, DM, eyes, cardiac, thyroid? What about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree relatives. This would be especially important for a breeding dog for me. A lack of cardiac, eyes, and thyroid tests  may not be a deal breaker, but no DM, hips, elbows would be. Temperament would have to be impeccible on parents if a puppy, on the dog itself if an adult. I've dealt with an aggressive and disobedient GSD; I could not forgive that in any breeding dog.

Next I would consider titles and make it my business to try to find out how they were earned. If an adult I'd want to see the dog show me how it earned those titles. If not titled, not a deal breaker as long as the dog exhibits appropriate behavior for age and pedigree. I would like to see that dog outside of it's familiar surroundings. I'm not a title freak, but I do like to see a dog with the will and desire to serve.

No disqualifying faults, a dog that I would consider able to finish in the AKC world or to receive a breed survey under a respected judge. I would have to like the dog's conformation myself. I would want to see pedigree a with some linbreeding on good dogs I liked. I would not buy a dog for breeding with a mish mash pedigree. It make no sense to me to outcross generation after generation.

Does the breeder have a good reputation for breeding quality dogs and for offering and honoring contracts? Would I have to return a dog to get a replacement (would never agree to that, a deal breaker for me). How much control does the breeder expect to obtain over the way the dog is bred or handled. I would not buy from a breeder who wants to control the dog's future. My dog, my decisions.

I'm sure I've neglected to mention something important. If I could find an adult titled or untitled dog to meet my definition of breeding quality I would think 5 to 8 K would be a fair price. If it were a puppy without prelim xrays, 2 to 3K. If a  young promising  untitled dog with prelim hip, elbows and DM test, I think 3,500 to 4 K would be fair. An adult titled dog with a winning show record would probably not be of any interest to me as I could not afford to pay the price he or she might be worth.

I think priorites will be different for most of us based on our past experiences and needs.

People can get what ever percieved value they can place on it if they try hard enough.  It's been my experience that if you're a great owner of dogs, those prices have a way of coming down very quickly to the point of great breeders with great puppies calling to see if you want to come pick one up :)

Price of a dog? Let's switch the discussion to value of the dog. The two are not necessarily connected. Everything you'll ever buy is a product of two variables, quality and marketing. One one side of the equation you have quality which goes from poor to excellent. On the other side of the equation you have marketing which is minimal to maximum. Where the two cross for each individual is the sale. Some examples would be you have a very well bred puppy from an excellent kennel, from the best parents you could hope for for 1,000. That puppy doesn't need to be advertised. It will be sold as soon as it's offered for sale. There's a waiting list. Opposite end of the spectrum is the very average puppy that is on a super website from a breeder that has no experience with the breed other than listing puppies for sale. The advertising exceeds the puppies credentials but since it's marketed well, the description is such that it walks on water, you get pictures of it with kids and all the other advertising gimmicks designed to market to the basically unknowing, it's expensive.

Bottom line, a portion of the price is marketing. You may be getting a dog of better quality for less than the market simply because you know to go to where the best value is; the courthouse steps for that real estate purchase, the diamond wholesaler for that special stone, the auto auction for that low mileage Mercedes just coming off lease. Flip side would be that house that was patched up to be flipped with a coat of cheap paint from the Homes magazine, the yellow included diamond at the mall jeweler, the Mercedes revolving majestically on the dealer show room floor. The type of buyer you are determines what you will pay for a dog or anything else in life.

Having gotten that out of the way, there's quality. This is where the real value is and where most transactions come up short. Across the board most consumer's have not taken the time to accurately assess the quality and value of what they intend to purchase. They rely on the sales information designed to maneuver them into a sale or they know just enough to be dangerous.   

How to get the best dog for your money? Simple get as close to the source as you can. Weed out the breeders with no experience from the accomplished ones. How to do that you ask? Just Google the breeder and German Shepherd. If you get a list of where the person has entered their dogs in events and they have some accomplishments. You have a GSD enthusiast. If all that comes up are puppy ads. You have someone that is just breeding for the money.

Once you've done that you can enhance your chances by going to events and meeting the breeders and see their dogs. Do their dogs look like a dog you want to have? If so, chances are you have a match. Show some interest. Get involved. You have the best chance to get the best dog for the best price. If in doubt, find someone that has the type of dogs you like and ask their recommendation.

Don't have the time to do all that. You still want a dog. Do the first step and then look for red flags.

If you just want a puppy. Here's a few things to look for.

If the ad has a puppy with kids and talks about being raised with kids. It's a sales pitch. These puppies are nursing on mom for 5 to 6 weeks. They have been off mom for 2 to 3 weeks. What could a child possibly offer the puppy other than an injury by stepping on it? It's sales.

If the ad claims the dog is good for family protection, schutzhund, search and rescue, agility, flyball, babysitting, small chores around the house and yard work. It's a sales pitch.

Warranty. If it has a life long warranty or some extended warranty, probably a sales pitch. It's a feel good thing and everyone wants to feel good.

If they advertise the grandparents were world champions or some ancestors were accomplished, guess what? 99% of all the German Shepherds born in Germany all have some famous dog in the pedigree. Is it a good dog or a dog that has fallen out of favor? Both you and the seller probably don't know. Otherwise they wouldn't be stating the obvious. It's a sales pitch.

Want something better than a puppy? Something to compete with? Maybe something that can show or work and be competitive? Something valuable for your breeding program? Chances are it's not for sale. If it is for sale it's probably not something you really want. I've been buying dogs for about 15 years now and I have only purchased one from an ad. The rest were dogs I researched and approached the owners. Extracting a top prospect is exciting. Here's a little of the criteria I have used over the years.

Families of dogs. Over time you acquire a taste for what you like. Dogs are the same. Each breeder is an artist. They paint with flesh rather than a canvas. The dogs certain breeders make from the families of dogs they like produce their type of dog. After awhile you get a feel for what type of dog a breeder strives to produce and how successful they are at producing it. You can start your search by learning the type of German Shepherd you like and learning who produces that type of dog. It's the absolute best way to get something you really like.

Bloodlines: Which dogs produce what you consider the best, most desirable traits? Are they currently in favor or were they eliminated from the future plans in Germany?

Placements and accomplishments. From a show perspective, I look at groups of quality. V40 is as good as V30 to me. There's not a lot that separates the dogs at that level in the ring. A handler can make that difference. Look at the overall dog. Don't get bent on placement.

Production through the motherline. If mom is good, her mom was good, and the great grandmother was good. It's a good foundation dog to start with.

Hip and elbow production and ZW scores are something to consider. The rest becomes personal preference. Is the color right? Do I like the overall appearance. Is the personality right, etc. From there you have to decide if you're willing to part with what it takes ot get it. However you part with your money as a knowledgable consumer.

 

Even so what you are saying is mostly right,  you assuming some things you should not and omit much which is important.  Getting as close to the source as possible is often a big mistake on many levels. Long term warranty  is not always scheme, and pups being risen around kids is not necessarily lie or bad thing since environment  where the pups grow is of paramount importance. Now that I got that out of the way I'll say this.   

You say the best way to determine how to get best value for the cost does not say anything about what the value actually is. And no, not all buyers are motivated by value ( really  replacement value)  like that.  Also you are forgetting the reputation of  the seller,  services of the seller provided after purchase,  former way the seller was dealing with problems, Honesty of the seller and buyer, psychological hang ups of the buyer and attachment to the product by the seller,  prestige of the dealer, and type of a venue where the product is sold,  economical situation ( motivation)  of the buyer , and needs and motivation  for dog of the buyer, love of the breed or specific  bloodline and personal relationship with the breeder, bragging rights earned by spending a lot of money by the buyer or bragging right by  getting great stinking deal,  supply and demand which is psychological effects as much as economical, fads, is it a sale, did the breeder died or have sickens in the family, is he going out of business,  how much will the breeder value his time and how much is the cost of his infrastructure like real estate, insurance, dog food, vet , wage for help and himself, power, ... discounts for special groups, sale, sickness of the seller, desperate security situation of the buyer ( timing) ......... bidding situations, geographical location of the product( where same dog is cheaper in place A then in place B and on and on and on and on. On top of it you can have a best Uga buga dog but if there is not market for Uga buga dogs then you will not sell it for $3 even so you invested in the upkeep of it and training of it $10000. On the other hand if the buyer is looking for Uga buga dog and there is only one in Lower Timbucktu then the price is going to be even $500000. 

Thousands of  books have been written on topic of value and marketing and price of things and psychology of it all and thus I understand that you can not put it here all on this forum. Then why to even try to analyze this? In the end the price which should be paid ( what ever that is)  - and is paid  are 2 different things and what should be paid and is paid for any product  is too complex to put it into some formula and it is not based just  on quality of a product and marketing but it is based on myriad fluent conditions and intertwining and interrelating effects. .

 In the end the price is determined by what the buyer and seller  subjectively values and  the buyer is willing to pay and seller is willing to sell the dog or anything  for.  Thus the value of the dog is what is anybody willing to pay for it.  You may have  a bottle of water in middle of the desert and you have bottle of water in the convenience store. Which is higher and why. According to you it should be roughly the same the same. But it is not. That is why the best way to determine value of real estate is by comp price of the real estate in the same area and not  by replacement value. And that is why Rockefeller said you should buy when blood is running in the street.  Same things are never the same.  Price of the dog or Jumbo jet is determined by meeting of minds between buyer and seller. 

 Prager Hans

 

I probably fall into the idiot or sucker level for many of you.  On the other hand I also do my research.  but my research is based on just a couple of things.  I know what I am looking for before I start to look.  I then look to see who is breeding what I am  looking for.  Then just as importantly for me is that I feel comfortable and trust the breeder.  I have heard people say they don't care about the breeder.  But I say this if there isn't trust you make a deposit and you trust they are going to have a pup available.  You also have to trust that the breeding is truly as they say.  For me it is more then that.  I figure with my dogs if I bred I would care where each pup went and would be interested in how things were turning out.  I may also see things in these dogs as they grow and I may want to ask if they have seen these behaviors in this line before or many other questions.  And so if you have a good relation with the breeder it will be talking to a friend and not just talking to a person.  So if they are breeding what I want and I get along with the person and really trust them.  That to me is worth a few extra dollars.  The breeder that I got my two girls from I have that kind of trust. I trust her enough that I asked her to do co-ownership on these girls because I wanted her even more involved, even though I could have just bought them outright.  Foolish?  Sucker?  Hasn't worked that way for me.  I have no regrets.  I would buy a hundred from her.

 

Reggie

Dog1 made a lot of good points for at least people who are interested in showlines, don´t listen to marketing paroles, don´t care about fancy pictures, don´t care about "long term warranties" too much, but care about the dog, its ancestors, its health.

The "American way" of dog marketing always puzzles me  ( we are following, so don´t worry ...).

"Value and marketing" is correct, but honestly, the reason of people to pay a lot of money for a dog almost always is bravado (correct word ?).

1. The showline people want to "own" a VA dog, through a dog of this kind they try to become well known and famous ( ridiculous, people only see that they are rich and stupid = no way to even get a part of the spent money back with stud fees ).

2. The workingline people want to "own" a winner or runner up, too, but most of them aren´t even able to handle the dog in question on a high level - and they didn´t train the dog, so nobody cares.

3. The "normal" people, not involved in dogsport, but rich, do believe that the most expensive "PPD" will be the best protection for them ( they have to talk about the amount of money they paid, because they are not able to show any ribbons / dogpeople don´t talk about money at all...), but know nothing about protection dogs.

I honestly think, that a very good dog is worth some money, but it still remains a dog.

 

Nobody cares about warranty until the dog has bad hips. Go figure. :) 

Hi Susie,

I don't think you mean, "bravado* ", but instead are talking about "bragging rights". People want that right in all manner of things. When it comes to dogs, it seems humans like to take credit for such things as deciding certain combinations of genes are better than other combinations.

Since money is used to express our feelings of a perceived value, when it is joined with some of the more shallow views people hold, they might seem to focus on that. I really don't think it is as common as some would like to think it is. There is a huge resentment from the "have nots" against the "haves" that always takes the theme, that if their bank account is low, at least their brains are proportionally higher.

The real kicker is, if any one of the "have nots" succeeds in creating the value in their dogs' breedings that results in wealth, too, they certainly won't want to think their superior brain power in choosing such a winning breeding combination has suddenly decreased.

On another note: Warranties in the dog selling world, laughable. IMHO

* Bravado is more specific to a certain show of courage. Swagger, or a even a false display of courage.

I would never buy a dog for breeding without a contract. I never sold any dog without offering one either. IMO a contract says the breeder is confident that he/she has done the best job possible to provide the buyer with a healthy dog that conforms to the buyers wants. I do not expect a lifetime warrantee, that's ludicrous. However I do expect any dog I buy (or sell) for breeding to be eligible at 24 months for certified hips, elbows - SV or OFA or an accredited vet radiologist -  and to have no disqualifying faults. The dog should be free of any communicable diseases for a period of 8 weeks after purchase and free of any genetic disease/s that would prevent it from being bred or exhibited. No warantee/contract, no deal for me.

The vast majority of puppies produced go to companion/pet homes. What buyers are looking for is a healthy confident puppy and many want health guarantees. They usually do not go thru the effort of showing, titling or having hips/elbows certified on them, but instead teach them only as much obedience as required to fit into their homes. These buyers usually give into their vet's suggestions to spay/neuter them at 6 to 8 months of age. They are looking for a fairly priced pup from a quality sire and dam.

Some buyers the ones that have educated themselves are savvy, and will spend a fair amount, usually in between 1000 and 2500 for a puppy.

Other buyers are just looking for the least expensive pup they can find and can find, usually with a price range of from free.