opinion for dux d cautro flores - Page 1

need opinion about progeny of dux hw he produce?

I have a 20 month old male from Dux and Zimba vom Hirschel. His appearance is excellent. He has the nice red and black coloration. His conformation is very good and he has good size in my opinion (a little larger than normal). He has not been trained in biting. His obedience is good. He is not gun shy. He does not have good self confidence around strangers and other dogs. I believe that is more from his raising (socialization) than from his genetics. My fault not his I believe. I am working on that. Conformation, appearance, size and health are all good. Shy and reserved. Everyone who sees him says that he is beautiful (but he won't let them pet him, he shys away). I have kept him on a farm and not socialized him properly. Beautiful head and expression. Stands up for himself and is not afraid of my very large Rottweiler (they don't like each other). Neither will back down.

I have an almost 5 month old Dux son out of Lailana vom Kirschental who arrived at the end of June. Like Do right's boy, he has excellent black and red color and so far seems to be very well put together and moves very well without that typical puppy awkwardness: nice steady gait and already quite athletic. You can see him at about 15 weeks here: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/474040.html (he's a bit more red than what the photo shows). He is unbelievably confident and greets strangers with a wagging tail and lets them pet him. I keep throwing new situations and experiences at him, and nothing bothers him at all. Even extremely loud noises don't bother him at all: I took him to a 4th of July beach party, and during the very loud fireworks display that lasted over a half hour he spent his time calmly sniffing and scratching the sand, and he's been through several loud thunderstorms here without any reaction. He began running to the gate to bark at strangers who came to visit the first day he arrived, but is very friendly once I open the gate and let them in. He's great with little kids and lets them grab his tail and ears without getting angry. Barks at strange dogs but wants to play with them when he gets close. Played with a relative's enormous Lab (115 lbs.) the other day, and even though the Lab body-slammed him repeatedly he kept coming back for more. Already showing signs that he will dominate my 11-year-old male GSD - he both shoves the old guy out of his puppy food bowl and will try to nose the old guy away from his own food so he can steal the adult food. He loves to steal my socks and is very proud of himself when he does it. Tomorrow we go to my trainer's to begin his basic obedience training, and I'm thinking he might have what it takes to try to work in Schutzhund in the future - he certainly has a very stable temperament. If you do a Yahoo! search on Dux de Cuatro Flores, you will find quite a few pictures of his progeny, and most of the ones of pups around the same age as my guy look very much the same. Not to say that all of his pups come out the same, but from the sampling of pictures I've seen he does appear to contribute a lot of himself to his offspring.

Dont beat yourself up it is genetic not how he was raised look for a articles called elements of temperament it explains this better than I can..I am not saying the dog as a puppy who was introduced to strangers etc would have not been less nervy as a adult but genetic is 90 perenct the nerve base and thesholds of a dog.Marlene

Marlene, there are just as many articles out there that describe how strongly socialization will influence a dog. From my own experience I know how much the first year matters. One reason why a breeder cannot guarantee against faulty puppy raising and whatever results because of it. The literature is full of the importance of imprinting and socialization. Example - a pup that has not been socialized to humans in the first 5 months of its life will never become properly "tame" or "domesticated" even if it lives in a human household afterwards. It will act like a dog taken out of the wild and will never completely trust the human. Another example - a dog that was taken from its mother too early (ie with 4 weeks) and raised by people without other dog interaction will be socialized to people, often to an abnormal level, and later in life will lack the proper dog-dog social skills, possibly to the point of not being able to interact properly, because some of the basic dog-dog communicationskills have not been learned early on. Another example - the strongest human imprinting phase is the 3rd and 4th week of the pups life. If a pup has had little human interaction during that phase, which happens a lot with breeders who do not let anyone touch the pups in the first few weeks because of fear of people bringing in infections, then that shows later in life. If you imprint very thoroughly during that time and then have little interaction again in the last few weeks afterwards til the puppy leaves for its new home, there is very little difference in dog-people interaction of these pups later in life. Almost the same as if they had maintained strong human contact during these last few weeks. These examples have nothing to do with genetics, works the same with mixes or purebred. The Monks of New Skete insist that if you stress a puppy during the first couple of weeks (brief moments of individual separation/isolation) it will be able to withstand stress better later in life. Lots of other examples out there. Genetics is what we know the least of but put all the emphasis on. Environment is what we have studied the most and can actually control to a certain degree, but love to ignore. Material for a new thread... As per Dux. So far some pretty promising pups have been out there. Too early to tell yet. Surely several will be at the Siegershow. Subhani, if you are interested that would be your best source to go by at this point. Find out who is going and see if they can get some direct feedback for you (pix, videos, personal experience, etc). Keep in mind he is only half of the equation, at best.

thanks for ur wise comments.

If a dog is sound up-bringing is a small part this is known fact. You may socialize a puppy to cover or help condition but nerve base is genetic this is something every breeder knows and proven over and over.

The nerves of a dog are inherited from the dogs in his/her pedigree and everyone knows how to properly up-bring a puppy for them to achieve his/her highest potenial but if a dog has weak/bad nerves no matter what you did in raising the puppy correctly it will always surface. This is why weak nerved dogs should never be breed. There is a higher percentage of weak nerves in show line dogs than the working lines. I have seen some working lines with this as well of course and this is why it is so important not to breed a weak nerved dog. To me a weak nerved dog is the ultimate fault. http://www.dogstuff.info/elements_of_temperament_whatis_temperament.html

We gave a puppy to a family member who we were hesitant to do so as they were not like we were with dogs. We found out the puppy had been stuck in a pen, no human contact, did not know his name and did not have a collar or leash, just feed once a day and left. We went to visit when the dog was a year old and found what his fate was and conditions and removed him immediately. Had his nerve base been bad we would not have beeen able to touch him without being bite but since he came from excellent breeding stock while he was spooky and freakly at first recovered nicely and within six months knew his name, learned to play ball and tug and went on to be Schutzhund titled and is on my website Blackstar is his name if his genetics were bad more than likley he would have had to be put to sleep with the up-bringing he recieved or lack of. We had to hold him in the car he had never been anywere or seen or experienced anything. A company from Hollywood approached AlabamaK9 to do a commerical using one of our dogs and he was selected as he is so good with people and from his start in life this is amazing and a testament again to the importance of genetics. Genetics is what made the difference not us rescuing him and introduing him to things. Genetics/bloodlines are the key to everything. So many breeders look at the color, size, impressive this and that and they are missing the most important thing, temperament/genetics.

Marlene, first of all I am very happy to hear that you took this dog back and that he recoveder so nicely. If this dog has not been imprinted and socialized to humans while he was born and raised at your kennel and your care, little could have been done for him. Regardless of genetics. What you are describing is just another rescue scenario that countless dogs of all sort of breeds and mixes and dogs of very diverse genetic background encounter by the millions each year. Difference is that you provided a rock solid foundation for this dog that he could build on later in life. The structure above was never properly built or torn down, but with a solid foundation you could always build another upper structure. Part of that foundation is genetic, but a big part of that foundation is acquired by imprinting and socialization. Yes, nerves play a role and of course genetics do as well. But don't kid yourself. If it was so easy and so black and white as you describe everyone could, or rather would, breed the perfect home baked dog: just enter all the right ingredients, and poof! everything fits. If you have that recipe, please share, millions of breeders would be grateful. And the dogs that result from that too. It is for example a proven fact that pups that had everything done right during the first 8 weeks, that were fine and outgoing and mentally strong, that such pups can turn into absolute nerve bags when things go really wrong during the important fear imprinting phase during the puppy stage (9-11 weeks). Lots of things out there that can affect nerves. That is not to say that proper or improper raising of the pup covers anything up. A properly raised pup can still show nerves, if it happens to be nervy. You cannot cover up nerves with imprinting and socialization. In every litter you will see varying degrees of certain traits and the best raised (imprinted/socialized) and also best bred (genetics) litter will still have the occasional nerve bag(s) in it. Regardless of lines. We pick up a lot of other peoples messes. I have done my share of rescues over the years (all kinds of breeds, not just GSD) and my share of fixing GSDs that others said would never work. Especially dogs that people said did not have the nerves. I have to admit, I can see what is fixable and what is not and I will not waste time on what is not fixable or not to the degree I want. But just like people can be traumatized beyond their limits, so can dogs, regardless of genetic make-up. Does not mean that they cannot recover under the right circumstances. What DoRight is describing is a selective apprehension, not that the dog is all nerves all the time. That is an indicator that yes - lack of socialization to these elements. People affect behaviour and nerves of their dogs, often without knowing it. If they do not want their precious/valuable pup to be harmed by another dog for example, their unspoken language about that is picked up by the dog and the dog will consequently react to other dogs just like the owner feels about such interactions. Thus confirming the owners fears, and enforcing it with each encounter until both become locked in a circle of that behaviour which will result in the dog to become and stay apprehensive of other dogs. Many owners, regardless of what breed they have, what gender dog, what genetic background, always have dogs that develop the same problems or the same character traits or behaviour patterns. I see it with my dogs, and I see it with many people. If you look for it that is. Maybe its the owners genetics :o).