CDN V.S U.S. SCHUTZHUND DOGS/CLUBS - Page 1

Any opinions on this. I tend to notice Canadian clubs tend to have much more civil aggressive dogs v.s. U.S. clubs. I know schutzhund is a sport and in the U.S. here most people really worry about liability and being sued so I believe most clubs in the U.S. have more sport-oriented point dogs vs Canadian clubs. I saw a trial a couple weeks ago that none of the U.S dogs viewed the helper as a real threat and the Canadian dog really treated the helper as a threat. This dog was sound and stable but could care less about the sleeve once he took it off the helper. Given the chance this dog would have attacked the helper without the sleeve and for real. The American dogs did not see a threat at all and really seemed more routine trained than anything but they scored better. I have 2 titled dogs myself and if I found myself in a dark alley about to be raped or attacked I would want that Canadian dog I saw with me and not my dogs and mine have always been pronounced protection dogs. I used to think my dogs were strong because they protected the yard and their pens. I really look at them differently since I have seen this other male. Any thoughts. Ana

Could it be it was just a better dog, like the shepherds use to be. I see some clubs that have very strong powerful dogs and handlers that can actually work these type of dogs correctly and then you have other clubs that have ...well...dogs. So I think it's more a question of Genetaclly powerful dog, good handler, Good training, good Helper, and a good Training Directer at a club as opposed to Canadian/American clubs. I think the Canadians also have the POINT dogs to compete in the sport field as well as the tough dogs that might not necessarily bring in the high points.

IMO I think it also has alot to do with training. If you always train with a sleeve and never try to bring out aggression without it, why wouldn't the dog get stuck in the "routine" and become sleeve oriented? In my experience (in reference to training); dog bites the sleeve, dog grips the sleeve, helper slips the sleeve, dog runs in a circle with the sleeve. Dog gets praised for holding the sleeve in his/her mouth. This is what the dog gets used to. It becomes the routine, IMO can't totally blame the dog. But this "routine" is also a grip building excersise and necessary for the "sport" part of it. Some people may be afraid to introduce a hidden sleeve or bite suit because they are afraid the grip or targeting will suffer, but if you want true civil aggression (from dogs that are capable) perhaps its not such a bad idea. I admit I am not a seasoned Schutzhunder yet, these are just my observations thus far. Regards, Melanie

Yes. I am not saying I have never seen real good tough dogs here because I have and for those who breed we have stronger buying power than Canadians so it makes sense to have some real good dogs. I do note that most clubs are dominated by "safe" and "liability proof" dogs. Which I guess comes from our litigating society. I just know that I also saw how schutzhund club people reacted to seeing this dog. At one point he was off-lead socializing with everyone and even the guy who was to do helper work and you wouldn't have a worry at all. He was by all accounts perfect. He was brought out later to do protection and everybody could tell by his bark and his aggression that he meant it. All of a sudden club people all started backing away from the side of the field. I could tell that all of a sudden people who were petting him an hour earlier no longer felt safe around him and he showed them no threat at all. But boy was he serious and angry on the field and even I would not have gone anywhere near him. The only bite he took was on the sleeve but it was very easy to see he wanted to take the helper out and he was trained to only bite the sleeve. Later he came out again and was good again with everyone including the helper that just worked him. Although I could see everyone was a bit more cautious around him. What I notice at American clubs is more dogs, like mine, that look more like it was hard work training them to get them to bite and I think we more promote having those dogs in our clubs and daily lives because they are absolutely no threat to anyone, even someone being a real threat to you. I know I would not feel as comfortable having a dog like that out in public as I do with my dogs even though I saw how safe he was with everyone. It is just that I would know what he is truly capable of. I spoke with a few American girlfriends of mine, one who saw the male as well and all they said was Why would anyone want a dog like that? I honestly think a majority of our clubs think that way. I will say that I had plans of breeding my dogs and I will not after seeing what I saw. I now just feel that there truly is so much better out there even though my titled dogs make great club sport dogs and home companions and I truly care for and love them. Am I being clear enough?

Ana, you cannot judge the dogs of a whole country after seeing a single dog. Some dogs are more civil than others. Not everyones cup of tea and not everyone can handle such a dog. Its a personal preference of the owner. If the dog is trained well there was no need to back away from the dog while he was working. And in the rare case the dog would have turned around, it is very unlikely that he would have set a bite on a neutral person standing still, especially when the helper then gets more animated to draw the dogs attention back to him. You and the people in your club might benefit from inviting more dogs for training and going to more trials to see more of a variety of dogs working. If you like what you saw and would like dogs more in that sort of direction you could breed more towards that by chosing a stud that produces more civil drive. That does not mean all pups will have it, but some might. Does not mean you do not stop your plans, just adjust them. Breeder goals shift all the time as you learn and grow. But - you saw the reaction of the people in your club, not every puppy buyer may be qualified for such a pup. Nice to see a dog with an on/off switch.

One reason you may see some more balanced dogs in Canada is because of the R.C.M.P. breeding program. RCMP dogs are some of the 'best' working dogs out there. THey have to be. These dogs must be able to do 'it all' . THey are not trained for one specific task (detection etc) but need to be able to track, bring down, search out, etc. Only dogs that can do it all make it. Many police dogs will be trained for more specific tasks depending on thier strengths etc. THis works as there are more dogs available to make it out to a 'call' in the city than you would have out in the country/prairies etc. Liability issues are just as strong here in Canada as they are in the U.S. We also have justt as many breed specific banning issues as you and thus still need to be careful in the breeds 'reputation'. Lastly.....your experience might just be that...your experience and not really a true reflection of what we have in canada???? I dont do SchH (just personal protection) but my dogs are worked regularly on my large flock of sheep. I also have tested many, many gsd's in herding and my expeirence is generally that most are quite balanced in their drives. Those that I have tested in SchH are a mix of having very GOOD balanced drives to those that are way over the top in prey.

Sorry the above should say, SchH dogs that I have tested in sheep herding (I have not tested dogs in SchH).

I just joined to add a comment on this. I agree with VHDOOSE and Melanie about genetics and training and... I have been to clubs on both sides of the border and in general I agree with Ana and add that it seems the further away you get from a large metropolitan area the more real the dogs in the clubs tend to be. I think Canada is less sue crazy which leads to this and has less strict dog laws in general. Also smaller communities offer less risk than having a potentially aggressive dog in a large metropolis. I applaud you Ana for seeing the light before breeding your dogs. I think there are true breeding dogs and only sport dogs. If you as owner feel that strongly once seeing something else out there I would suggest you follow your intuition. I see way too many people promoting their breeding business and referring to the "real deal" or "strap yourself in" or ... only to see that they have an average dog--nothing bad and nothing I find outstanding. Just because a dog is titled does not mean it should be bred. The literal term Schutzhund means Protection dog and I agree many clubs are full of not-real dogs that should never be bred. I believe they should be in the club and enjoy wonderful exercise and learning and bonding and competing with their owner and handler. I also say they help make a club atmosphere very enjoyable as they tend to reduce the testosterone level a bit. I am always amazed what happens to someone when they see something outstanding and what they learn from it. LOL ANA.

D.H. Thank you for your input. I notice from your posts you are always very helpful. FYI, it was not at my club where I saw the dog and I have seen many in Canada and the U.S. and it is the impression I have been left with and it is just that he left a deep impression. I was moved. You are correct in your statements. I also know there was no reason for everyone to back away but we all saw him on the field and everyone just automatically backed up. You are correct about not everyone being able to handle a dog like that. I know I could not if he were in drive. It was obvious he had an ON/OFF switch but he seemed the kind of dog that if I were out with him on a walk and he felt someone was a threat and he decided to go after him I know I would not be able to stop him. Thank You for your suggestion D.H. I think I may be able to step things up by breeding my bitch to him. Thank you for your comments too MARIOM

ANA. I also think that is the best way for you to choose a stud once you see if the dog can be bred. By seeing the dog and in particualar off his home field and knowing what your goal is rather than listening to 100 hype and marketing sell lines. Best of Luck. Mario