Beginner Question Regarding VA list - Page 1

Hello all! Please bear with me here, as I am a beginner when it comes to conformation/dog sport with German line dogs. I started working with AKC style dogs about 6 years ago in AKC conformation and obedience. After this, I decided I wanted more in a dog and looked into the "dark side" of German dogs (LOL!) I am quite interested in Schutzhund, and after researching for awhile, I added a male west German working line prospect to the family. I hope to take him as far as I can in the sport, though I realize I have a lot of learning to do. One area I don't have any experience at all in is the German conformation ring. This brings me to my question. I have been reading several message boards (including this one) which were recommended to me trying to get a grasp on what I can learn. Today I was browsing the VA list and I noticed something... From what I understand, VA is the German equivilent of the GSDCA's "select champions." For example, Select 10 all the way up to Select 1, or "Grand Victor" is equal to VA10 to VA1 being the "Universal Sieger" (Please correct me if I'm wrong!) Now as I said, when I was browsing the list of VAs on this site, I noticed that especially in the past 10-15 years, there are many repeat VA1 dogs. I had not seen nearly as many AKC dogs winning their National Specialty twice as I see happening on the VA1 list. What are the reasons for this? Are these dogs who are coming from a specific line of very high quality dogs? Are there certain things they have in common? As I said, I am new at this so I am just trying to learn. I would be very interested in hearing different opinions on this, as it would help me to better understand the German style conformation sport. I would also like to add that I DO understand the differences between the AKC and German show lines as well as the German working lines and I MUCH prefer the German dogs, both show and work. Experience with the AKC dogs has soured my opinion of most of them, and I really respect the work that is put into many of the German line breeding programs. I think I will be happy here in the world of German line dogs! :) Thanks in advance for any information/opinions! Sincerely, Jacqueline Fisher

Jacqueline, you seem to have a decent grasp of the GSD world. The Universal Sieger title is typically given annually to a very special dog, and not usually the conformation VA-1 Sieger of the working-class dogs. For the U.S.A. you can find a list of these qualifications at this link: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/regulations/universal_sieger_regulations.htm This special dog is not always the most beautiful (that's solely a matter of opinion and taste) example of the breed, but it is one that achieves the necessary amount of points per the presribed list of events and most importantly, possesses ALL of the qualities of the perfect GSD. You are correct about repeat VA-1's. Why? I really don't know, but I would say that it has a lot to do with the progeny produced by the dog, as this is more important than the dog himself. Some will say "politics", and while I am sure that could be a factor as well, it is one that cannot be proven. One has to say, though, that the owner of a VA-1 (or any VA-rated dog) must have a lot of personal fortitude to present his dog as a candidate for a repeat Sieger title, knowing very well that he is competing with the "best of the best" as far as working-class dog conformation, and is risking a bit of embarrassment if the dog does not repeat the title. Maybe the answer to your question about the inability to find repeat A.K.C. Select Champions has to do solely with how the A.K.C. views any titled dog as just a very nice dog, and seems to not be influenced so much by the dog's progeny. That is, unless the dog's progency achieve champion titles to the end that the dog achieves the title of ROM. And this is often not awared during the dog's lifetime unless he produces while young and his progency quickly take championship titles. But, the A.K.C. is an all-breed club whereas the S.V. is just for the GSD. Perhaps that is the real reason. I realize that nothing I said constitutes good answers to your questions, but it is the GSD world as I see it, and I could well be wrong. Bob-O

Hello Jacqueline, I would like to answer your question to best of my knowledge and understanding as I am also new and acquiring knowledge from this site and by being in contact with some of the experts. Your question basically is how the dog is selected as VA and then how it reappears many times as VA? First of all dog as a specimen should be extremely good and should have performed well in LG and OG shows, then mostly all VA's have earned good placings in 18-24 months. 12-18 months class. So judges has fairly good idea which are the dogs that have potential to go on top. First time VA is purely on the basis of dogs individual quality. Repeat VA depends how dog has produced and also pedigree does matter. If you have seen the list of VA and lines they are carrying then you will understand that the Judges always make it a point to include different lines in top dogs. So breeders get choice to breed on. And the selected VA is the best specimen available to carry forward the specific line. For e.g. this years VA Dux Cuarto flores is good specimen to carry forward Hill Farbenspiel and Mutz Pelztierfarm line. Similarly Larus Batu is for Canto Wienerau line.(Correct me if I am wrong Canto or Quanto), then VA9 Nando is for Mark Haus Beck line. Basically Canto Wienerau and Quanto Wienerau are the lines todays breeding is based on. But now a days we are seeing more and more emphasis on Jeck and Zamb line. Repeat VA say for 4 to 5 times like Zamb Wienerau or Timo Berrekasten may be because owner is cometing everytime for the sieger title and not able to make it. Still they are the good as VA. I hope you find the information useful.

Sumo, good topic about being able to present the different lines so there is some breed line variety. This absence of breedline variety was addressed by the S.V. several years ago when it was noticed that many were breeding to only the top BSZS VA-rated dogs, and ignoring most of the nice (many nicer in my opinion) V-rated dogs. For that reason, the award of VA was suspended for a short time in order to force people to pay more attention to the V-rated dogs and promote a bit more genetic diversity. And the final number of VA placements is determined by the judge. From a catalogue of say, three-hundred (300) dogs, he may decide that only six (6) of them deserve VA status and there will only be six (6) VA seats that year. Or, he could like twelve (12) dogs enough to award twelve (12) VA seats, which is the most that I can remember. I agree on the ancestry issue. While I think we all agree that the quality of the progeny is far more important than the individual ancestors, everyone, including the judging staff remembers certain ancestors who in their opinion were excellent standards of the breed, therefore a tendency to be a bit prejudicial towards their decisons about a dog who is three (3), four, (4) or five (5) generations later. Good Discussion, Bob-O

Thank you both for offering your opinions on this and helping me to further understand! So, in the German ring, the judges are taking progeny into consideration as well? That would be one of the differences between German style and AKC, because as you said, in AKC style showing, the judges only look at the dog itself, without taking into consideration what he or she has produced. So then, do the German judges review a profile of each dog before the show begins so that they have an understanding of the dog's lineage and producing ability? Because of this, do they usually have the top VA dogs in mind before even seeing them? I like the idea that the German judges make an attempt to diversify the lines as well. This is another thing I did not know until now. So what I have gathered from all this is that the German conformation ring requires more from a dog than the AKC ring. Not only are the German dogs judged on their conformation, but also on their pedigree and progeny. It seems to me that with this type of judging, the German dogs have it more difficult, but as a result, the winning dogs are truly the total package. Does this sound like an accurate opinion? Thanks again for the discussion! It has been very enjoyable! Sincerely, Jacqueline

Jacqueline, the dog's progeny are very, very important. If you attend an S.V. type of show you will see the progeny groups presented with several of the sires who are contending the position of VA. It's a neat scene. You will see dad leading (usually strutting) often very many of his children of different ages around the ring for all to see. There are of course stipulations about the minimum number of puppys from a minimum number of dams so it can be seen how much the sire reproduces himself when bred to several different females. You are correct that the German conformation ring demands much more from a dog. With the A.K.C., the judges probably have some interest in the ancestry because they may have some knowledge of these ancestors, however they seem to care nothing about the progeny. Again, unless, that dog is quickly producing champion offspring. An A.K.C. dog who immediately comes to mind is Stuttgart's Sundance Kid, the leading ROM of all time with I think, ninety-eight (98) champions in his progeny. Of course the Sundance Kid has been gone for several years now. And, remember that the dogs vying for the VA and V classes are from the conformation working class, which means they must have breed surveys, minimum working titles, "a"-stamped hips (and now elbows) and have earned at least a prescribed amount of points at previous shows. The A.K.C. has some similar qualifications as far as show points and the type of show won, but no breed survey, working performance criteria, or requirement to produce excellent progeny. Now I don't want to start a fight wth the A.K.C. crowd, as I do not say this to negatively criticise their organization, but it is what it is. The A.K.C. is an all-breed club who essentially will trade money for certified pedigree for a puppy and has absolutely no requirements for the puppy's ancestors save for them being A.K.C.-registered. I was still laughing yesterday about your comment. I think that you will enjoy the "dark side". Bob-O

Hello Jacqueline, I think Bob-O has given fairly good idea of both AKC and German sieger show. I think if you want to learn more you should buy one of the URMA book or Reivision casstted of the sieger show. There you will see how the show is conducted. In URMA book you will find at the end of each section drawing illustrating top dogs coming from which linage. It will help you to understand how the selection of top dogs is done. Also you can on this site lookk at the progeny of each VA and will see that invariably every VA dog has his progeny highly placed in 12-18,18-24,24 + months class. You can check Larus Batu, or Zamp Thermodos,Quantum Arminius. By the way what do you mean by "Dark Side' of German Dogs"