Natural vs AI Breeding - Page 3

I agree on the reliance on prog testing.  I think it's an important piece of the puzzle, but twice now I've had bitches brought to my male that were "ready" according to the progesterone numbers, but based on the dogs' actual *behavior* and the results of breeding, they were not at that time.  The first female who was on time according to her test tried to eat my male, and my male showed only mild interest in her (drooled over the urine, tried to mount once or twice, but that was it, he was not dominant with her).  She came back two days later which would have been "late" according to the numbers, but she immediately stood and they bred no problem.  Maiden bitch, 12 puppies conceived. Over this summer another bitch was bred to my male and again the progesterone number said we bred on the optimal day, but my male was not as dominant as he can be though still persistent in mounting, and the female was really fighting him.  She had to be restrained to be bred.  The owner relied on the progesterone results and did not come back for another breeding. Maiden bitch, no puppies.

Yep.  HAVE to do the LH testing to know.  Otherwise it's just a guess.  A reliable stud dog is a much better indicator than the PG numbers. 

LH testing is a pain to do correctly and is labor intensive, requires multiple tests which is why they avoid it.

 

I agree with both of you..HAD it happen two times..

I think AI is ok if a vet is using the frozen or a straw for a breeding that is arranged from a distant breeding'

IF for any other reason they should not be bred

YR

That's the reason many horse breeding operations use teaser studs (vasectomized stallions.) to see if the mare is ready. No sense in wasting an expensive stud's time if the female is not receptive. The animals themselves are the best indicators of the female's readiness.

My main concern with A.I. is the lessening of genetic diversity. We saw it happen with the American showline dogs (Lance and his sons) and I've heard from many older breeders the genetic disasters caused by that bottleneck (toxic gut, dogs dropping dead from heart arrythmias, entire litters having to be euthanized due to genetic issues that made the pups non-viable, allergies, etc. etc.)

IMO, there is already far too much inbreeding in the purebred dog world. Even the Germans have issues with it... my female is an Ursus grand-daughter, and around the time she was born, I was seeing ads advertising that pups were "Ursus-free".  No surer sign of the over-use of a stud than that!

Sunsilver,

A lot of places use mini's for teasers to test the mares for AI or a proudcut gelding.  When it gets time to breed for AI with horses there is a lot of ultrasounding as they watch the follicle develop and ideally AI right before the release of the egg. That's why PG testing doesn't work.  I've had a mare release a follicle at 25 mm in size, 35 and a 52.  No correlation that we could find on days in heat, year, light cycle. etc etc.  There is just to much variation.  Same with a dog, at what level of PG does a bitch ovulate, this heat cycle, next cycle, difference in dogs.... You get the idea

Agree 100% on the bottleneck of genetics that would result.  That is the singular most reason that the Jockey assoc won't do it witht the thoroughbreds.  Even in the cattle and the horses there are top studs that are used way too much because of the availability of AI.  And they have tens of thousands of more in the cattle and hogs to help keep the bloodlines from getting too bottlenecked and you still see it to a degree. 

I've been out of the horse world too long...didn't know they used ultrasound now!

There's enough chicanery going on in the thoroughbred racing world as there is. Just imagine how bad things would get if they allowed A.I.!

P.S. MK, sent you a PM in regards to that 'other' thread! 

An extender is NOT used when you have both the bitch and male there--and when it is used for shipping fresh semen that semen CAN live up to 10 days. I know this how? Because I have done it both ways. I don't think an AI can cause smaller litters--size of litters is up to the bitch anyway. Last AI that was done using this male I used was 7 very healthy pups. Maybe some of you need more than that but I think 7 is a nice sized litter. If I was ready to breed again and what I wanted to use was way off I would do it again. My vet has a 97% success rate with AI's. Before he came here, I talked to a repro vet about 1.5 hrs away and I swear he was nothing but about $$. He had the dumbest suggestions and 300 for an office call? That's ridiculous. That was for just getting to know the dog.

And in all this talk I am hearing nothing about the males. was the sperm tested? What was the count? Was it tested when it left the collection vet and the receiving vet? Because that's part of it too. When you take the semen out of the box you have to allow it to warm up--you don't just insert it and hope for the best--you put it under the scope and look at the movement before even testing it.

And yes there are MANY dogs that have been overused. Not just Lanc e. What about Canto? What about Uran? Both carried blue, liver and coat recessives among Canto being a hemophiliac. (spelling) If you go back in the breed you will find that at one time the SZ did allow very tight linebreeding, like 1-2, 2-2--so how was that all the American's fault? They were imported here grown titled and with that sort of pedigree. And there are people now who have to have this one and that one in the peds for better sport dogs and then they linebreed the hell out of them. Genetic bottleneck...oh but that can't be possible.

Thanks for the pig, horse and cattle information. No it's not dog breeding but they are all warm blooded mammels and have assimilar systems.

After all this discussion I still do not understand why the SV will not allow AI.

Under natural breeding the genetic bottleneck is already small.  Not sure if AI would really have much effect, everyone in Germany it seems is breeding to a select few popular dogs anyways.  

Even if some of you claim lower success rates, if others of us are willing to take the risk why can't it be allowed?  

 Me personally, I have had 100% success with AI in dogs never had a female not get pregnant 

Difference is horses and cattle don,'t have litters, pigs and dogs do...could be that's why it's recommended to used more than one straw per female with pigs and my vet recommends at least two covers when he does ai for a client's bitch.

Just throwing it out there, I noticed that AI's are extremely popular in the Bully world.  There are videos all over YouTube.  They say that they do it because of health complications/ it's safer for the dogs than natural breeding.  They are completely different breeds though.

Vonrivera