It's no secret that Sch and Sch breeders arethe main targets as to why the "breed" is being ruined today.  This comes from Sch people past and present but generally it is from breeders who "breed on ly REAL working dog" and not they "prey monkey sleeve happy dogs that can't do real work" as they often put it.

My question is, why is it that you don't hear about these breeders of "real working GSD's" ruining the breed in their own way?  Just look on this board, every month we get 2-3 topics of "who produces the hardest male" and "what lines produce real working dogs?".  It seems like you have a large number of these types of breeders just as much as the Sch point breeders.  What is the point of producing these super hard dogs which people in general can't handle?  Then you have to consider what sacrifices are you making to make these "real, uncorruptable and hard ass dogs"?  Breeders breeding for high defense and wanting to produce nothing but civil dogs.  Should they share just as much of the blame as the Sch point breeders b/c it seems like they aren't breeding for the overall dog.

Many don't believe in testing their dogs or if they do, they are the only one's who evaluate them.  You don't see videos of nothing but the dog biting the sleeve (same complaint they make of Sch dogs).

I didn't think it was the SchH breeders that were ruining the breed, quite the opposite.  The breeders that work, title and compete with their own dogs are not the ones ruining the breed.  On the contrary those breeders need to be applauded.  A breeder that has a goal and produces pups, raises them, trains them and excels at SchH trials or SV style conformation showing has done something for the breed.  You have those that produce dogs, but never train or title...yet they claim they are "preserving the breed" and those that show dogs but never work them.  That is where the problem lies. 

"who produces the hardest male" and "what lines produce real working dogs?".   

Those posting the questions that you are referring to generally are newcomers to breeding, working or training. 

Ace you raise so many questions; high defense and super civil dogs are not worth much in my book for sport or work, unless it is balanced by high prey and and a clear head.  I'll take a civil dog if it is high prey and high drive.  A dog that is just civil or very  defensive is no good to me. Too much defense with out the other qualities is a weakness in my book.  The super high defense / low prey dogs usual fold like beach chairs when pressured properly. 

If I wanted a high defense dog I'd get a Caucasian Mountain dog and give up on SchH or working a dual purpose K-9.  I'm not overly impressed by those dogs, and I like serious dogs with real aggression.  It is a must for our Police dogs and I like it for sport as well.  

What most people do not understand is the balance and drives needed for a good working dog, and the role prey drive has in that balance. 

Anybody who plans on breeding a dog before training and competing is not furthering any working dog standard, so all SchH competitors don't get credit for supporting the breed's genetics.  Some buy dogs planning to bred them, send them off for titling, then breed them.  Where was the selection?

And those who do so only after they have seen proof that the dog can work well may get such credit.  But collectively, if working dog breeders narrow the gene pool through excessively narrow selection criteria (e.g., hardness without regard for sanity -- as I now realize Slumdunc as already addressed), then they may in fact do more harm than good.

I think the answer to your question as posed is in the evidence and is also personal.  Which pool of dogs do you prefer?  Those that are the product of working dog breeders or others?  

The problem today is most all your Sch. dogs  are breed for all prey because it is a easier dog to train. Training in all prey makes a sleeve happy dog, a balanced dog ( 50% prey+ 50% defense=fight drive) takes more time in my eyes but yet you get a better dog on and off the field. The #1 problem is everyone is in a rush to get titles and if the dog can do prey/play training they give up. 

i second slamduncs /jim's post .. [ IMO , one of the few professioanls that i respect on this PDB , having a goldmine of  knowledge ] . I think one critical point to ad is that : although many do Sch for sport, and there are a multittude of excellent dogs/handlers ... Sch has been associated IMO to much with 'show' - Sch ,in the generality , has become corrupted. yes it is a character test - but it falls short of it's original intention . WHY ... because .. if it is  'true' character test , then how is it I can train , as well as many many others, dogs with temperament flaws or weak stress levels and attain the title ? THIS SHOULD NOT BE SO !!
        That  you cannot do in other sports . such as belgium rings , mondio , french ring,  PSA , KNVP ., the dog will fail . the irony is that these sports are a lot more fun to do ,and easy to teach your dog , [ if the dog is capable] - a trend i see , at least in my state ... eveyone has just about left Sch sport .. it is defunct in my state .. but not the other sports .. they are growing !! and let's not forget -other sports offer titles too .
        now i do not want readers to mis understand .. because a dog can work does not in and of itself  make an exceptional or excellent  good dog. [ re-read jim's post ].  Protection is just one barometer of a good dog .. thnere are a multitude of other factors. one of the problems that i have seen with police dogs [ some i have trained ] or other sport dogs even more so : GSDs are to high in the behavioral trait of "aggression" .. there is a qualitative and a  quantative aspect to this behavioral trait. yes .. i had many converstations with ,my officer friends -- IMO the dogs are so high in aggression , e.g crowd control dogs .. these dogs cannot be walked around because they are so reactive , high in aggression and frankly a  pain in the butt to control . many were almost impossible to call off the bite , not because of the training but because of the genetics. they were too much agggression . at one time this was a very big problem .. difficulties do not have to arise because i dog can't work .. bujt as JIM alluded to there is the aspect of HOW a dog works that is equally important , which is  not addressed by a mere title. !!
    Sch breeders alone should not be to blame ... anyone that breeds can breed for the better or for the worse. Frankly - IMO i don't even wantg to know if a dog has a title .. why ... just show me the dog !!! and if i want a pup ... show me the pup !!  that is the proof of the piudding , sort to speak ../    what are you evaluating .. an animal or a piece of paper.         ' Rather have no titled  dog  and a dog that can save my life .. than a dog who can't save my life yet is holding 5 titles and a nice flashy tophy . !!
         

Wetzler said:
The problem today is most all your Sch. dogs are breed for all prey because it is a easier dog to train. Training in all prey makes a sleeve happy dog, a balanced dog ( 50% prey+ 50% defense=fight drive) takes more time in my eyes but yet you get a better dog on and off the field. The #1 problem is everyone is in a rush to get titles and if the dog can do prey/play training they give up.




Read this.  The issue is balanced drives.  A dog must have hunt drive, prey drive, defense and fight drives in balance.  The dog should be able to switch drives as the situation changes.. and do so readily. 

How many dogs hold and bark as part of fight drive these days?  Fight drive is about winning.

How many dogs do you see today that do the bark and hold as part of the fight instead of as an obedience exercise? 

I personally woul like to see more breeders testing hips/elbows & DM testing.
If you look at the OFA Website DM is a "real" problem in this breed. I just can't see spending a
dime for any dog no matter how good the dog or the owner is if the dog is not DM tested.
It will seperate who the real GSD breeder are from the one's making profit? I think it is just "wrong" not to test for DM., I would worship the ground one stands on if the also test for EPI! 

Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency  i

is also a probelm in the GSD breed. I just don't understand how breeders can breed dogs without
testing. Both of these problems right along with bad hips are just killing the breed. Am I wrong?
With breeders making money hand over fist with breeding these dogs into the ground and passing off these medical and finaical problems off to the next guy just makes my skin crawl.
I just can't see paying upwards of 3500.00 for a pup with no testing.

sorry, just how I feel about it. Bash me all you want.

The New Comer

Most people breeding do not have enough knowledge, experience, or the two right dogs to be breeding....and that goes for all lines and titled or untitled....Just my opinion.

Thanks everyone for posting.

Yes I wanted to focus less on the Sch breeders as they I believe take too much blame for "ruining the breed".  It always comes across as that Sch breeders are messing things up for the "real working dog" breeders.  These breeders don't believe in titling (maybe PSA but definitely not Sch) and feel that they are "real breeders" because they don't breed "point dogs".

What about these "real working dogs breeders"?  Why doesn't more focus and attention get put on them?  As you stated Jim, there are many that just paper breed and want to breed nothing but aggressive dogs.  They don't keep their stock and see what they produce and really just depend on the buyer to keep them informed of the dog's progress.  Why don't we focus more on these types of breeders ruining the breed as we do Sch breeders?

In the end they are not breeding for the overall dog but rather certain traits.  Why aren't these breeders talked about just as much as the others that breed for points?  Look how things are now, everyone wants either a "old style czech dog from the bp" ..a clone of Gero or Norbo etc.  Or they want a dog who is hard and won't fight and will stop everything short of a bullet but you have to put up everytime you have company.  But at the sametime you don't hear them say, "I take tracking into account" or "I take bidability into account".  You hear, "everytime someone knocks on the door he goes nuts scaring the person knocking."

Are these breeders really any different from the Sch breeders they compalin 24/7 about?

Are there really people breeding just to produce Schutzhund dogs?  Is that what a Schutzhund breeder is?