Puppy Pedigree Review/Advice - Page 1

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by firefly98 on 19 December 2022 - 10:12

We are a family searching for German Shepherd puppy. This will be our 2nd Shepherd, we lost our last one to Osteosarcoma. The puppy will be a family dog (2 adults and 3 younger kids) - we do not intend to show/compete.

We have found a puppy we are interested in but I'm trying to be extra cautious given our prior Shepherd's auto-immune problems and eventual Osteosarcoma. The breed seems to be smaller but does seem to do the right things. Would love some advice understanding if this is a good liter. Lower our chances of health risk is important. I'm mostly concerned with the dad's COI but, after casual research, have no idea if it is reasonable. Parent pedigree links and the mating pedigree are below. Any quick feedback would be sincerely appreciated from those who have the knowledge!

Note: We have met the puppy and parents over the weekend and were very impressed with temperament. So, health risk is the main thing we want to verify.

Errol Vom Sudenblick
Dad (Errol) Pedigree: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=3082466-errol-vom-sudenblick?_v=20220617135724

Denwolf's Kahlua
Mom (Kahlua) Pedigree: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2556387-denwolfs-kahlua?_v=20220830152934

Mating Pedigree: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=3082466&mother=2556387

Thank you!


by Sunsilver on 19 December 2022 - 10:12

You're in the UK, correct?

I'm more cautious than most when it comes to inbreeding (which is what linebreeding really is) and I would not buy a pup from that stud. Just...NO...way too much inbreeding! And it's not just cancer you need to worry about. There are many other harmful recessive genes that can come to the surface with this amount of inbreeding. Epilepsy is one of them - see the thread on this page.

by firefly98 on 19 December 2022 - 11:12

No, we are in the United States. Colorado to be exact. This line is DDR which I've only just started learning a little about. I'm not sure if higher inbreeding is expected/acceptable for DDR pups. We have no particular preference for DDR although they are beautiful dogs.

Thank you!


by Sunsilver on 20 December 2022 - 13:12

One of the reasons for the higher linebreeding in DDR dogs is the DDR no longer exists, so no new dogs/bloodlines are being added. This really limits the gene pool available, and that's never a good thing.

Entwerfer Haus

by Entwerfer Haus on 20 December 2022 - 19:12

Dax is a bit tight on the father's side amd Athos will be tight for the mating, but there really is no inbreeding. The linebreeding is perfectly acceptable.  I've seen INBREEDING here and that's not it.

Inbreeding is considered mother to son, father to daughter, etc. 3+ generations back is standard to keep the preferred lines. Generally, 3-4 or 4-5. Once into 5-5, it's really a wash out.

You are going above and beyond buying a 'pet' with those lines, so please do your homework.


by Sunsilver on 21 December 2022 - 03:12

You and I define 'linebreeding' differently. Linebreeding is just a less extreme form of inbreeding, genetically speaking. Dogs would be a lot healthier if breeders followed the SV's guidelines of not breeding closer than the 4th or 5th generation.

by Mike Delaney on 21 December 2022 - 09:12

Entwerfer Haus,

You said the OP is going above & beyond pet. Other than a couple of IGP titles a few generations back, I didn't see anything close up that indicates something to be wary of if looking for a pet.

Progeny of RBPIS Errol Vom Sudenblick TC and SV-SG, UKC-CH, UWP, CA Denwolf's Kahlua CA, TC, HIC, DN, BCAT, RATI, RATN, RATO

Admittedly I don't know what much of this mess of letters stand for.

TC= maybe a tracking title?
HIC= Herding instinct?

The rest? no idea. When I see all these jumbled letters I assume there is a "TKN" trick dog title in there somewhere also.

Can someone explain?

by davisgsds on 21 December 2022 - 12:12

I know of a small breeder in Colorado that breeds healthy working line German Shepherds that are not closely line/in bred. If you want to email me I can share his information.


by Sunsilver on 21 December 2022 - 17:12

HIC is indeed herding instinct certificate. TC is a triple champion: Any dog that has been awarded the title of Dual Champion (DC) and the title of Obedience Trial Champion (OTCH) or Tracking Champion (CT) or Agility Champion (MACH or PACH) may be designated as a Triple Champion. However, the title is supposed to be listed in front of the dog's name, not after.

RBPIS stands for 'reserve best puppy in show'

As for the female, SV-SG means she received a 'SG' conformation rating (very good) with the German shepherd registration body, the SV, under their judges.

She's also a conformation champion under the UKC (United Kennel Club) where the rules aren't as strict as they are with the AKC (therefore the dogs don't have the extreme angulation that AKC dogs have).

CA is a lure coursing title. DN is dock-diving novice. BCAT is also a lure coursing (FASTcat) title. The RAT titles are barnhunt titles (hunting for caged rats in a barn.)

Wow, the owner sure has done a lot of different stuff with her! :o

Personally, I'd want to know the details of the male's TC title, just to be sure the owner is being honest about it. It's in the wrong spot, so I wonder if they REALLY know what it means. I think you can check with AKC to verify the titles.



by Sunsilver on 21 December 2022 - 23:12

Something that needs clarifying - the PDB is not an official breed database. The owners of the dog or whoever has editing rights for the dog can enter WHATEVER THEY WANT.

They could be lying about the titles. As a matter of fact, someone who has access to SV records HAS checked, and there is no record of the male having an SG title. That would make me question the other titles as well.

AKC titles are easy to verify, but those from UKC and other organizations are not. You would have to ask the owner for proof.


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