Vogue - Page 4

thank Ibrahim and everyone for their support!
Debby

Since we are speaking of Vogue. She's a story not unlike many across the US. I have a similar female who just happened to come along when the elbow certification requirements were adopted in the US. The WDA followed the SV with the FCI recognized elbow certification immediately. USA adopted a transition peroid with acceptance of OFA elbows since OFA is somewhat the US standard. OFA is not recognized by the FCI for elbows even though the OFA hips are. OFA went through the FCI certification process on the hips but has yet to be FCI certified for elbows which as I understand it; is the reason OFA elbows are not recognized, OFA has just not repeated the FCI process they did for hips.

This encouraged the split in the breed as the JA emerged. There are two types of dogs that can be shown in the working class in the US. Those over 3.5 years old with a USA conforming breed survey and those with a WDA conforming breed survey. If I am not mistaken even though there are different requirements for both, either is acceptable in Germany as long as the survey was done under a SV recognized koermeister as the rules in Germany make allowance for the rules of other countries. There are surveyed dogs that by virtue of which organization conducted the survey, (even if the same SV judge did both the WDA and USA survey) are rated differently. A dog can be VA in one organazation and only SG in the other. Same dog, same requirements, same SV koermeister,,,VA in one organization, only SG in the other. It's just one example of how one simple aspect of a rule changes the dynamics of the breed in the US.

So much for that aspect of the discussion.

Cont......



Vogue, I've seen her twice. First time was at one of the Bur Oak show a few years ago. She stood out. Intense focus and drive. You could spot it a mile away. As usual I had to inquire about the pedigree as I continually seek to acquire the knowledge of which SL ancestors produce working ability.

I met Debby with Vogue by her side. Debby had a ball in her hand as we were talking. Vogue was intently focused on the ball and sat there for the 20 minutes focused, even shaking a little loading for the opportunity to strike.

Vogue's story unfolded and as I listened, it became a familiar story. There's way more to these stories than can ever be posted here. A story worth repeating, a story worth listening to. It's the same story in Germany as it is here in the US and if more people took the time to listen, the conformation lines would be a different dog today. Vogues story begins with a small breeder who is focused on the balanced dog, golden middle as some call it. In her quest for the type of dog that meets her personal goals as a breeder. She passed some of the VA dogs and went for the unknown. She made the same conscious decision to bypass the VA father,,,, the one that is supposed to make the puppies valuable and marketable,,,, and went with what she thought was best for the type of dog she wanted to produce. She bred genetics, flesh, and blood in lieu of ratings and accomplishments in the ring. One of the few breeders that apply their knowledge and experience over ratings and pigment.

So we have Vogue. The creation of a vision of conformation and working ability produced through the genetics of what is undisputably the absolute best genetics in the conformation lines. The genetics that have been proven repeatedly on the field to excel in all phases of whatever a German Shepherd should do. Vogue who in the hands of a larger more connected breeder or handler would rival the accomplishments of the best in both the ring and on the field. Unfortunately she is now one of the many victims of the inadequate system we have in the US. Vogue is just one of the many dogs that will never reach the level they are capable of reaching. The reward and satisfaction like many before will never be realized. The only reward will be the satisfaction of knowing that you have produced what you had hoped to produce and hopefully that is enough for you to strive forward.

Debby - as you may know I am in the UK so I only 'know' you through reading your
postings on here, I have no other reason to pipe up and support you !  But I am
going to do so !  I, too, think the OP has some agenda they are not being fully
honest about.  From the video, Vogue looks like a fine bitch to me,  better than many,
and there does not seem to be any problem for her with her elbows in terms of gait.
The judge's comments are on there for all to hear, and I don't think you faked that.
Elbows are a somewhat vexacious subject, with the variations between systems of
assessment, and then the recognition of those assessments.  I'd hate to be in the
position of someone bringing an English dog to America at present,  with a BVA/KC
'xx:xx' hip score, a BVA elbow score of [say] '1:1', and a Class One Breed Council
Survey report;  basically a German-bred dog but with all-UK gradings, rather than
SV.  One like that would be quite confusing to American organisations, I bet !!!
Your contributions in general to this board are informative and helpful.  I would
therefore rather believe you re. Vogue than some poster who seems to have blown
in from nowhere.
Linda Swift.

The OP baso, sounding like a very mean-spirited person, and to what end?   Yuck.... hope I don't get any on me. 
Thank you Debby for your ongoing, well thought out contributions to this board.

I am humbled and actually in tears by all the support from people I don't even know as well as those that I've just made acquaintance with. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Randy you summarized it so well!!! I could not have said it better. THANK YOU ALL!

There has not been and will never be any cheating on my part. The SV elbow failure was because of an injury. Those elbow radiographs were not suppose to be sent in, as I wanted to let the elbow heal and then send them in later. But from what I hear, no matter that the German vet was told not to, he was obligated to send them, as an official SV vet. Hence the situation. After the elbow healed and the new X-rays were about to be resent, I talked to the SV and they informed me that they would not allow resubmission. This was devastating and I had no other choice but to send them to OFA and have to deal with the fall out. Vogue does not have dysplastic elbows, PERIOD. You can hear Herr Mai say she has FANTASTIC movement and even though movement does not prove everything if she was a severe as the SV says she is, she would definitely be limping and showing signs by now. I imagine that she will eventually have some arthritis buildup due to the injury but until then I will let her do what she loves to do as much as I possibly can.
Debby

First to Dog1- A dog can not be VA in the WDA if the Koerung was done by Johannes Grewes who IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS A KOERMEISTER by the SV !  Therefore since he was the "Koermeister " who did did the Breed Survey on Vogue she is ineligible for VA according to the SV &WDA. Dog 1 you tell a heck of a story , first the story you so eloquently told about Yupp & Walter Kotters at the USA SS in Indy which i might add was just as much bs as this story about Vogue.  Vogue nor djc is a "victim" of any system , she is a dog with Dysplastic Elbows. As for all these first hand accounts of this judge said this and that judge said that well they are just that - stories ! I was present when djc presented Vogue to a very well known BSZS Judge at a show that she did not enter but nonetheless wanted the Judges opinion on Vogue and after watching 1 lap of gaiting he clearly said " the dog has something very wrong with her elbows" . As for all of the nasty comments my post has generated i say to them that this is  an Informational Forum and nowhere do i see that a person cant express his informed opinion,so if you dont like the posts dont read them.

Well Bozo I did have a reason for saying I didn't think Debby falsified the voiceover on the
tape - which is that I recognised the voice, having heard it standing 5 feet away from him when
he judged in England; care to dispute THAT ?  Rudi Mai is an SV judge I have always greatly
respected, and I for one see no reason to doubt his assessment of any dog that goes under
him.

REALLY Bozo?!!! Your identity is becoming clearer.....
It sickens me to have to guess which out of the 2 people it might be....
That particular judge said nothing of the sort!! He said he saw a slight limp and wanted to know if she had been injured. THAT'S IT! We had been working her hard and it was so slight that I hadn't even noticed it. It was gone by the next day! Sounds to me like YOU are the big story maker!!! Mountain out of a mole hill!! So just where was that "terrible problem limp" at these last shows Mr. Know it all????? You are pathetic!!

Regardless of whether the female in question's elbows are normal or dysplastic (though I'm satisfied with the integrity of the OFA rating, personally--frankly, an elbow is either normal, or it's not. Degrees of abnormal don't impress me), I STILL don't see WHAT FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE ANY OF IT MAKES TO THE OP!  Don't like the bitch, or her handler, or her breeder, or her owner, or whatever?  FINE!  DON'T buy a puppy out of her, don't do any business with or make any referrals to her handler or breeder or owner!  WHY DO YOU CARE???  How does anything regarding this bitch diminish you or your life in ANY capacity???

Geez, I can only IMAGINE the coronary you'd have had were you to have witnessed me showing my racing-bloodline Siberian Huskies, with their non-traditional coat colors and patterns, in the conformation classes at the local breed club's specialty shows--one of which was the Kennel Club of Philadelphia's annual bench show [the Sibe classes there constituted the specialty show of the Siberian Husky Club of the Delaware Valley].  Even though NONE of the showline breeders had any love for the looks of the racing-line dogs, they NEVER discouraged any of the racing-line folks from showing in the breed ring, because [a] every entry fee was appreciated, and [b] the more dogs shown, the more championship points could be earned.  So again, I'm back to thinking there has to be something personal behind this reputation-assassination campaign...