Collar - Page 1

So I went to a seminar that was held by a top notch person.  My dog is not yet barking at the helper.  So...that is what the focus was.  I brought the dog out for assessment, she did her thing carried the bite pillow off the field...etc.  So the idea was then to bring the dog back with a dog that is already barking...I am sure we have all seen this.  Day 1.  Dog barks.  Ok.  Day 2 repeat. I was paired with a trained dog and I happened to get on the field first....so I went to where I was told to go...and I figured I would just wait until the other dog came near to where I was by the blind.  OK.  Well the person decided to go ahead and work my dog instead of waiting.  Sure.  So guess what...no barking some vocalization, but not really a bark.  Here comes the other dog...he tells the handler to wait with their dog and the person continues to work my dog.  The other handler is about 60 or more away.  So then the person starts to work the other dog, now the person has their back to me and my dog.  Well as he went she barks.  But the time he can get back to reward the bark some time has elapsed.  IMO not very reienforcing with such a long delay.  So this goes on for awhile and my dog is getting tired.  And then before I took my dog off the person says to me....we should have put the prong on so that she would not get so tired.  And yes I can hold my dog.  That last part...I missed the logic in it (well that among other things, anyway).  So if you are familiar with the reasoning for using a prong, in this context, on a young dog (who has never had one on)...spill the beans, please.   

Did you put one on her?  What happened?

I'm not sure about the prong use in this context, but as to the barking, I've seen this tried and sometimes it works, sometimes not.  The times it hasn't worked are when the non-barking dog starts barking at the other dog, not really barking at the helper.  The second that dog is worked alone, it goes back to not barking.  Not saying that's what happened since I wasn't there, but I've seen it happen multiple times and the helper does have to be careful about what they are really rewarding.  Just offhand, if the dog is getting choked out from barking on a collar, I'd use a harness rather than switch to a prong for that reason.  I do work one of my dogs on a prong most of the time and he still barks and pulls and lunges.  For me the prong serves other purposes.  Unless they mean using a prong to further agitate the dog and stimulate barking?  Not sure on that.

No, I did not put a prong on my dog.  She is a puppy no need for it IMO.  I will not do something that I feel will hurt my dog, I can be a real butt about that.  She was out of steam by then anyway, so she got her last bite and we went out....she was pretty tired and did not even carry all the way to the car.  I did not bring her out again and had a flight to deal with so I had to leave.   
VKG-Yes, that happens that the dog barks at the other dog and it is the job of the helper to be right there to feed the bark.  It was a combo of frustration and barking at the other dog as well, in the above context.  I worked a dobe that would not bark and would bark at other dogs so we brought out another dog and bang she barked and the second helper gave her a bite for it.  It took two sessions and the dog barked by itself.  So for that dobe it worked, for this dog...well.  I do not think in this case the helper was close enough for an association to be made with the barking.  Not to mention his back was to her....which I do not want.  Bark under threat not under retreat....I do not want a butt biter.  The prong suggestion is the most puzzling of all.  I was always taught to use a harness with pups that are not barking, not prongs.  For me the prong is a tool for correction, after the dog has been trained/taught the expected behavior, nothing more.  So the mystery continues.         

Hedi

If you had a flat collar on your dog she probably choked herself out by straining to get her bite.  The prong suggestion would have been a way to keep her from bearing into the collar and choking herself. 

I never work my dogs in protection on a flat collar.  Either a harness or the prong.

The prong can also escalate a dog's intensity/frustration in bite work.  Not every dog but some dogs.  I've seen dogs worked on the field where the more you try to correct a behavior -say getting dirty on the sleeve- with a prong, the more the dog escalates in terms of frustration.

I had a young dog that would not bark the first few times out.
They tried a few things to get the dog to bark without success.
So before the next training day:
I taught the dog to bark on command for food.
Then taught the dog to bark on command before I would throw the ball.

Next training day I gave the command - dog barked - bite reward.

RLHAR- Back in the day we worked everything on a flat, on the dead ring...or harness.  I should have also mentioned she had one of those thick padded collars on.  Which I do not doubt still tired her out.  Shoot, I was tired after 20 or so minutes of holding her.  Do you think the prong would bring conflict into the work?  She is still building a foundation and is not a finished dog.  We are talking bite wedges and bite pillows, so not even a sleeve.  Equipment wise that tells you a lot.  So for me it makes no sense because the foundation is still being built.  I can see your point with a more seasoned dog, and have seen that as well in good and bad ways.  His reasoning was so that she would not tire herself out....but you think she is just going to stand there and bark?  I would say she would have hit that prong a couple of times and she would either shut down, gotten frantic, or had conflict on what to do.                

Lee....how did you convince the dog to bark?  What did you do? Did you put a verbal on it?  I like this....

I can't see your dog Hedi so I wouldn't even hazard a guess on how she would work on a prong.

My male did not want to bark.  He would not even bark with another dog on the field barking their fool head off.  We had to bring my female out and incite his 'jealous' streak as he watched *ME* praise and and jump around like a fool with her.

Now, after some very careful work by our helper he is a barking fool but more importantly his bark is a deep, serious bark, he has no interest in high yipee prey barks.

Take some food you know the dog really likes - hotdog etc....
Tell it to sit in front of you or hook your leash on a door knob if necessary.
Show the dog the food and say geblaut, bark, speak, or whatever word you choose.
The dog will probably look at the food while you repeat your word a few times.
Eventually the dog will look at you, when he does say woof woof. (or make a bark sound)
Then show the food again and say you word.
As soon as the dog barks say yes (or click, etc..) and give it the food.
They usually figure it out quickly.


Lee