Agitation: What's it all about? - Page 1

I'm thinking that a dog who can handle hard corrections will not respond to "agitation" negatively or is just unphased, whereas the soft temperament dog probably wonders "why would you do that?", and he wants nothing to do with the situation.

I'm wondering that if this is an essential part of schutzhund, being the "agitation" , then of course that is why the sharper dog does better in the sport.  Are there biting sports without agitation? Yes, that is probably a dumb question!

(One day I'll find that field where everybody is working their dogs and see for myself.)

However, I think there are times the soft dog, who is still a working dog, does his job better because of this soft temperament, that I like to think of as a very, intelligent awareness.

I'd like to hear others comments or corrections on this idea.

What was wrong with the other thread? By your thinking a handler hard Cocker will do well with a helper putting a lot of pressure on him.

I do not see a correlation between softness and intelligence, I know plenty of hard dogs that are extremely intelligent and hard working.  I do not see a soft dog being a better working dog than a harder dog. 

Soft dogs typically need more agitation than a "harder" dog just to get them to work.  I'm really trying to avoid commenting on any threads, but thought I'd drop in on this one for a second.  From a decoy's perspective a soft dog and a hard dog need to be worked very differently.  I do SchH every Saturday with a small private group of friends.  One person has a fairly soft dog, it has probably taken me a year to get this dog to bite full and hard and work well.  The dog has a novice handler and is a rescue dog.  The dog is now about 18 months and ready for the hold and bark.  Anything negative in the dogs mind that happens in training sets the dog back.  For example, if the decoy stepped on this dog's foot even lightly the dog is done for the day.  I need to be very careful in my approach with this dog and it is challenging to push the dog just far enough to let the dog have a positive experience but not make it too easy.     

It took a lot of work just to get this dog to bark and initiate the action on the field.  If I didn't like the handler so much I probably wouldn't have spent so much time working and bringing this dog around.

I really do not see softness as a positive trait for a sport dog and even less for a working dog.  For a service dog it might be fine if it could make it through the training with out being washed out.   

Just to clarify a hard not is not necessarily a "sharp" dog, a soft dog can be "sharp" as well.  Being sharp does not by itself make a dog a good sport dog.

Jim

Soft to everything or just soft to some things? I dont get it. Whats your point? What type of agitation? Too many variables involved to make assessment. Are you confusing responsiveness to softness and that is why you think soft dogs are more intelligent? I disagree that one is more intelligent than the other based soley on hard vs. soft.  Dogs are more complex than that.

Thanks Slamdunc for your response, (sorry to make you feel compelled to post, LOL!) I feel you understood my question.

Don, I started this thread because I wanted a better idea of the purpose of agitation, why it is necessary for the competitive sport dog. If I tease my dog with his food in his bowl, is that also agitation? Thought there could be some conversation on proper agitation. Hope I didn't agitate you with this thread! The other thread stayed mainly with the definition of "soft".  I also wonder could a dog be naturally gifted in this area and not need agitation? Can't they just be good at the sport with their innate talents? I really don't know enough to comeback on the cocker comment, but I'm thinking on it.

SportyGuy, my point , I suppose is that working dogs who do biting sports need a certain type of temperament that is different than let's say, a guide dog for the blind and perhaps even one who does herding. I'm wondering if there is a place for a bona fide working dog without the agitation. I need to understand more, sure, but I'm thinking as Slamdunc says, a soft dog can be good for service, but around here, that dog perhaps doesn't cut it as a working dog.

It seems it is the agitation aspect that separates them. I absolutely agree dogs are complex and often think it is easy for doggie feelings and desires and intelligence to be misunderstood because of our own purposes. I could be doing that myself! Just interested in the conversation, I guess. 

Ok well I do think that a dog can do well in Schut without any "agitation" but you had better get some feedback on what the definition of agitation is. For me it would be defensive in nature and for others it may be simply frustrating the dog in prey mode.

A GSD IMO should be able to have the right temperament for herding, blind guide and bitework all in the same dog. Its a versatile breed and accepting less just because of what is mostly being produced out there will never be a good thing.

SSG, agree with that last paragraph completely. It should never take 10 differant dogs to make one good one. If  inherant traits are pushed down so far they cant be recognized they are definately a dog in decline
Hank

When soft ,hard, sharp is out of balance your dog
will have faults.

Malinois were bred the opposite to achieve balance
than the GSD...... at lease the DP2 mal's.

DP2 malinois kennel would breed a very sharp, hard, 
female to a stable male who was soft with a good mind but
close to balance. Meaning he had a good stable mind.
But The males at DP2, were very tough dogs...butt kickers.

You could say a dog is balanced but soft, or balance but sharp, and balanced
but very hard....They were good dogs but pass one the 3 traits in particular.
The dog I would say that was the closest to perfectly balanced was.....

Eik des Deux Pottois ..... He could be bred many times into a dogs pedigree
without unbalancing the bloodline. He had the full package and passed it on to
his progeny.



The Germans for almost a century bred sharp hard males
to soft stable very trainable females.

Why is this so????...Because they are different breed than the Malinois.

Your training will be 90% softening on a Malinois,

And depending on your GSD will be 60 to 80 % softening
and 20% to 30% agitation.

Agitation meaning.....getting the dog in drive by having to agitate him.

More and more I am seeing better GSD's that have the golden light
switch....You can turn them on and off with very little effort if you train
properly. I beleave this has to be bred into the dog you can't train it.

Soft, hard, and sharp must be balanced....and the brains always come from
the soft.......So soften those wild mustangs, train your dog to be hard early,
and put pressure through agitation to bring out their drives. If your dog
has these qualities already don't screw them up.

Balance of the 3 is the key, and that will never change. And is true in all the dog sports.
Start with a well bred dog...Remove as many variables as you can through good breeding.

If you bitch does not have one of the 3 you find a sire who does....If a dog is lacking to
much in all 3.......You have the worst of all 3 worlds....not a soft dog but weak dog.

I have not quoted today...pure Max Zone.......