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by watsongsd on 01 February 2011 - 17:02
Hi Guys,
I am learning some new things about genetics and wanted to ask people who have been breeding for a while if they have noticed any traits that they feel are very hard to breed out of a line? For example I have been told that it is difficult to breed away from light eyes, maybe this is a dominant trait?
Another question is about sex-linked traits. Have you ever noticed a trait or characteristic in a dog that he always passes on to his sons? Or maybe a female that produces male offspring consistently that exhibit a trait you do not see in her. Any observations about breeding you would like to share, or articles you would like to post?
Watson
I am learning some new things about genetics and wanted to ask people who have been breeding for a while if they have noticed any traits that they feel are very hard to breed out of a line? For example I have been told that it is difficult to breed away from light eyes, maybe this is a dominant trait?
Another question is about sex-linked traits. Have you ever noticed a trait or characteristic in a dog that he always passes on to his sons? Or maybe a female that produces male offspring consistently that exhibit a trait you do not see in her. Any observations about breeding you would like to share, or articles you would like to post?
Watson
by darylehret on 01 February 2011 - 19:02
To "visually" elaborate on the mechanism of sex-linked traits....
The male will pass the Y chromosome to his male offspring only.
The female will pass the X chromosome to both genders, but only the female offspring will continue to pass it on.
The male will pass the Y chromosome to his male offspring only.
The female will pass the X chromosome to both genders, but only the female offspring will continue to pass it on.
by watsongsd on 01 February 2011 - 20:02
Maybe this is why the motherline is considered so important. There are some genes on the mother's X chromosome that will have to be expressed in her male offspring since he will only have the X linked genes his mother gave him.
Does this make sense to you guys, and can you think of any examples of traits like this?
Ehret that is a great diagram. I appreciate the work you put into your visual aids.
Does this make sense to you guys, and can you think of any examples of traits like this?
Ehret that is a great diagram. I appreciate the work you put into your visual aids.
by MVF on 01 February 2011 - 21:02
Dominant genes are NOT hard to breed out. Recessive genes are the genes that endure under the surface.
Take the agouti gene (called Sable in gsd's). It's dominant. If you get an agouti/sable gene from either parent, you are sable. Want to get rid of the dominant sable gene? Just breed dogs who are not sable! Voila, the gene is gone!
On the other hand, take the recessive solid gene in gsds -- usually expressed as a solid black. (In most breeds, there is a dominant "self-color" gene -- for example, in labradors -- but in gsd's the self-color (solid) gene is recessive.) Say you want to get rid of blacks in your line. What can you do? It is not enough to stop breeding blacks -- that is what you can easily do if it is dominant, but the recessive gene can hide for generations and pop up gain.
So it is the recessive genes that you need to scour pedigrees for -- not dominant genes.
Hope this example helps. I used color because it is easy to visualize -- no responsible breeder actually advocates focusing on color.
Take the agouti gene (called Sable in gsd's). It's dominant. If you get an agouti/sable gene from either parent, you are sable. Want to get rid of the dominant sable gene? Just breed dogs who are not sable! Voila, the gene is gone!
On the other hand, take the recessive solid gene in gsds -- usually expressed as a solid black. (In most breeds, there is a dominant "self-color" gene -- for example, in labradors -- but in gsd's the self-color (solid) gene is recessive.) Say you want to get rid of blacks in your line. What can you do? It is not enough to stop breeding blacks -- that is what you can easily do if it is dominant, but the recessive gene can hide for generations and pop up gain.
So it is the recessive genes that you need to scour pedigrees for -- not dominant genes.
Hope this example helps. I used color because it is easy to visualize -- no responsible breeder actually advocates focusing on color.
by MVF on 01 February 2011 - 21:02
As said, the sire only passes along his Y to his sons and his sons only get their Y's from him. In theory, this should be very useful in knowing just what characteristics male pups will get exclusively from their sire -- and, of course, they will express them reliably, as there is no fuss with dominance/recessiveness.
Unfortunately, science has still not figured out what those characteristics are!
http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/0779.html
Unfortunately, science has still not figured out what those characteristics are!
http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/0779.html
by watsongsd on 02 February 2011 - 02:02
Thanks MVF, that makes sense. And that research is some cool stuff, and there's more... just have to look in the right places.
by Ryanhaus on 02 February 2011 - 02:02
True, it is easy to breed a color out of a dog, within just 3 generations I bred the chocolate gene out
of my lab, she can only have blacks & yellows even if I bred her to a chocolate, she would get what he carried, although I have always wondered, what if I bred my lab that only has black and yellow genes to a pure chocolate?
I had used a stud with lighter eyes than I like and kept a puppy with dark eyes to compensate,
You can somewhat control recessive genes if allowed to study as many dogs in person within the pedigree, or you are able to communicate with the various owners of the dogs in the pedigree and ask questions about defects, or colors, or temperaments, and they give you their best honest answers, now that can really help you out.
Breeders that work close together when pairing dogs up is the best tool.
Some people are afraid to reveal undesirable traits about their dogs which in the long run only hurts the unborn pups.
of my lab, she can only have blacks & yellows even if I bred her to a chocolate, she would get what he carried, although I have always wondered, what if I bred my lab that only has black and yellow genes to a pure chocolate?
I had used a stud with lighter eyes than I like and kept a puppy with dark eyes to compensate,
You can somewhat control recessive genes if allowed to study as many dogs in person within the pedigree, or you are able to communicate with the various owners of the dogs in the pedigree and ask questions about defects, or colors, or temperaments, and they give you their best honest answers, now that can really help you out.
Breeders that work close together when pairing dogs up is the best tool.
Some people are afraid to reveal undesirable traits about their dogs which in the long run only hurts the unborn pups.
by darylehret on 02 February 2011 - 04:02
I need to make a correction that the maternal line is illustrating a representation of mtDNA in the diagram above, not the X chromosome:
The male passes on his single copy of the X chromosome to his female offspring only, whereas the female will lend either of her two copies of the X chromosome to either gender of her offspring.
The male will pass the Y chromosome to his male offspring only.
The female will pass the mtDNA (mitochondrial dna) to both genders, but only the female offspring will continue to pass it on.
The male passes on his single copy of the X chromosome to his female offspring only, whereas the female will lend either of her two copies of the X chromosome to either gender of her offspring.
by Rik on 02 February 2011 - 05:02
I can't comment on character issues, as I never bred for that.
As far as structure, I found that poor shoulders are very difficult to correct. I would never try.
Rear angles can be changed in one generation. Croups, not so easy, but better than shoulders. Length in one generation, but not in all pups. Same for wither.
Color, I don't know, as I never bred for it.
In retrospect, this is what I learned. You can read all the books, attend all the seminars and do the XY shoulda do this until you die. What it comes down to is breed a good bitch to a good dog and see what you get.
Rik
As far as structure, I found that poor shoulders are very difficult to correct. I would never try.
Rear angles can be changed in one generation. Croups, not so easy, but better than shoulders. Length in one generation, but not in all pups. Same for wither.
Color, I don't know, as I never bred for it.
In retrospect, this is what I learned. You can read all the books, attend all the seminars and do the XY shoulda do this until you die. What it comes down to is breed a good bitch to a good dog and see what you get.
Rik
by alboe2009 on 02 February 2011 - 06:02
See..................... GOOD INFORMATION!
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