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by raymond on 29 August 2010 - 16:08
by GSDfan on 29 August 2010 - 18:08
I have always known it to be introduced away from the track (a line of articles on pavement). Downing the dog with food reward at the articles. Then encourage the dog to find the next one which is a couple yards ahead and visible since it's on pavement.
I had issues doing this with my bitch...she got to the point on pavement where she would indicate on her own if I was right next to her but she would not pull ahead without me (too obedient). So after I introduced it on pavement I put them on the track because I knew she'd go out ahead of me there. Sorta like I started it on pavement but finished it on the track (went to the track earlier than I would if she would have pulled out ahead of me on pavement).
Introducing it on the track with an otherwise good tracker if you need to use any amount of pressure (even just a light leash correction into a down is pressure to the dog) it can cause issues with the track (like avoidance). Even trying to keep it as positive as you can there is always some amount of pressure involved until the dog understands what to do. You still may see some avoidance when you put them together anyways but it won't be to the extent if they are not introduced on the track. Avoidance meaning the dog knowing the article is ahead but not wanting to go there...can be as little as hesitation or false checking left to right, but as major as comming back to you or flat out stopping.
Once my bitch learned the articles and they were on the track, to make them as positive as I could, I used a special treat at them (article only treat)...my bitch is nuts for tiny cans of cat food.
I'm sure there are many different ways to do it...this is how I learned so JMO.
by GSDfan on 29 August 2010 - 18:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA00tjUzAVc&feature=related
I found these two video's on youtube for introducing articles you might be interested in seeing...still off the track but in grass, looks like good positive methods.
I have also heard of teaching them with a clicker but never seen it done.
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 19:08
Excellent explanation. I have always viewed it as initially an obedience exercise taught of the track as you mentioned. 10 or so articles in a straight line a few yards apart. Depending on the dog I will place a piece of food either a couple of inches before or after the article. I don't put food on the article. When the dog gets the piece of food, I command down and am close to reinforce the down. The dog must understand the down command prior to teaching this. I like to find the spot to place the food that causes the dog to down with the article between his front feet. Then I reward with food and calmly praise at the article. I will also click and treat as the dog downs.
As with anything, the dog learns by repetition. When I start teaching this I don't do anything else that training session. Eventually, I wean the food out on the ground near the article and click and treat when the dog downs on the article.
Raymond, the dog has to learn that it is human odor that it is indicating on. The dog will make the association through repetition. To proof it down the road, I will carry a stick, rock or pine cone and use that as my article. Since it has human scent the dog will indicate on it. I do not do this very often for SchH dogs, only rarely.
We have done it in training where the dog has found a particular dandelion flower that some one has held and thrown back into the bunch of dandelions. I also had a kid at an elementary school demo hand me a blade of grass for Boomer to find. I dropped it in the grass, making a mental note of where it was, Boomer indicated pretty quickly and downed in the right spot. I don't think the dog knew what he was indicating on but knew that human odor was present. The smallest article find we've done is with an eyelash on pavement with the police dogs as a bet.
I'm glad to see you are working with your dog, good luck.
Jim
by raymond on 29 August 2010 - 19:08
by VonIsengard on 29 August 2010 - 20:08
Jim, what do you find to be the difference between putting food on the article or not? We've started my daughter's dog by spreading a bit of liverwurst on the bottom of the article and placing it food side down, and making sure the dog is down before flipping it over to get the food. Once the dog starts to down automatically we stop baiting the article and feeding them ourselves.
In my first dog, I hand fed the dog on the article, sort of hid it in my hand as I reached to pick it up then let the dog sniff under the article to "find" the treat in my hand. We thought we'd try something a little different this time and it seems to create more interest in the article by baiting it. What are your thoughts?
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 20:08
I do not like to put food under the article because the dog flips the article to get the food. I may put food on the article, one piece of hot dog on occasion. I generally do not like food on the article because it encourages the dog to touch the article. I like to experiment and see the best placement for me to down the dog with the article right between it's legs. You will lose points in a trial if the dog flips or nudges the article, so I try to avoid that. I will also do a "slight of hand" movement and have the hot dogs "magically" appear where the article is.
JMO,
Jim
by VonIsengard on 29 August 2010 - 20:08
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 22:08
I don't do it because with my luck the dog will flip it over on the day of a trial looking for food. Associations learned early on in training can be hard to get away from. It's like letting a dog get dirty in the blind the first time, it is always there lurking under the surface and so hard to correct. It is so much easier if the dog never gets dirty in training.
I make the articles a happy, stress free place on the track and my approach is a positive thing for the dog. That is why I experiment with the placement of the food initially to get the spot I am most happy with. In the beginning I will make it seem like the food comes from the ground at the article. I have started using a clicker with the down and the indication.
Once I add articles to the track, I do not bait right after the article. I do not want my dog too close to the next piece of food. I find this can make some dogs creep forward if they can smell a piece of hot dog a few feet ahead on the track. Instead, I will cover the dogs eyes briefly as I pet him with my left hand and toss a piece of hot dog a few feet up on the track with my right hand. Then I will restart the dog and he will immediately find food that wasn't there before. This works really well with a dog that tends to jump up and go really fast after the restart. The food slows the dog down and habituates them to start slowly after the article.
This is just how I do it, I'm sure some others could add their experience.
Jim
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 22:08
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