Breeding for standard faults. - Page 1

I believe Ms Jessup asked a great question.

I decided to ask in a new thread so not to hijack the one it was stated on. 

Why are curved and angulated backs in GSDs so prolific and bred for when the standard states otherwise?

The breed standard plainly states

"Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short."  ( from AKC) 

" the back including the loins is straight and strongly developed yet not to long between withers and croup"  (FCI international standard) 


It seems in many cases around the world that this is a generally accepted and condoned fault....

 I would be very interested to hearing the opinions/reasonings of perhaps a breeder, a judge, or anyone who prefers this body type.


For the record I'm not being sarcastic or instigative in any way, I would genuinely like to know the rationale behind it.  Even if  I don't personally prefer this body type, I have no moral  issues with anyone who does their best to breed healthy happy dogs that go to appropriate lifelong homes.

sangreinu

::::crossing fingers that this thread doesn't turn into an all out brawl::::

Obviously individual interpretation of the standard has eventually morphed into complete deviation from the standard. There are many AKC champions with ridiculously long, sagging toplines, and V dogs with severe roaches and overangulation. 

Part of the problem, I think, is some breeders consider topline faults negligible make no effort to breed to balance them. There is nothing wrong with breeding a dog that is *slightly* long, very slightly roached, or slightly heavy in angulation- provided the dog is exceptional and correct in every other way and said faults in no way impact the dog's working ability, and it is then the breeders duty to breed to correctly balance said faults- not ignore them.  After all, no dog is perfect. Every dog, even very very good ones, have tiny faults. A smart, responsible breeder recognizes these faults and purposly breeds to balance out a dog's strengths and weaknesses. Allow me to repeat **SLIGHTLY**, extreme faults should always exempt a dog from breedworthiness.

So now we have to ask ourselves: WHY have topline faults become negligible in the eyes of breeders and judges? Quite simply, fads and trends. In American show dogs, it was the development of the flying trot that caused blindness toward everything else. In German show dogs, obsession with movement and also color and type are sometimes causing correct backs to be overlooked. So what if Studmuffin vom Gorgeoushaus is overangulated and a bit roachy- his puppies are so red! So what happens? He gets bred to every bitch that breathes, regardless of whether or not that bitch is strong where he is not!

So to loosely answer your question sangreinu, the problem is the whole dog is not being looked at- only what is currently desireable. Also (and this is HUGE detriment to the gene pool!!), dogs who are faulted in what is currently coveted are quickly written off as not breed quality. For example, how many black and tan perfectly correct puppies are shipped off to pet homes because they are tan instead of red? There is nothing wrong with breeding a very nice black and tan dog! How about a correct male who is at the lower end of the standard in size, and does not have a grizzly bear sized head? Such males are not being used, either- because big, thick puppies sell.

Great post KCzaja.

Some people tend to see the croup as actually part of the BACK referred to in the standard, which it isn't...just looks like it. Showlines dogs have a much different croup angle than working lines dogs, so showlines dogs' backs look longer and more curved. At least I THINK that's the deal. I think mainly what people are objecting to in SL dogs is actually croup...or the downward slanting part after the end of the back but what looks like after the center of the back. 

If you look at this diagram, the back is really short and ends due north of the penis. So what is really bugging most SL people isn't the back at all, it's the croup kind of hanging down (not much in this drawing though). You get this sort of broke-back looking effect in some dogs where the back stops and the croup heads downwards. Or anyway, I THINK that is the deal.

I have a west german WL line bred girl. She is a grandaughter to paska. I notice with her that she hardly has any downward slope past the true backbone and croup area. Are the WL dogs better per say in the topline area then the SL dogs ? I am new and I spend alot of time with a breeder and schutzhund group here in IL and i notice her dogs are way more sloped then mine is. She has SL dogs. I am mainly curious is all and trying to learn. I also remember someone telling me that if I showed my girl in AKC Conformation I would likely get laughed out of the ring even I believe my dog to be truer then the american AKC type. I am not trying to judge I am just mainly curious ........... :D

Cath

 The Standard??  It seems it is viewed with the "rules are to be broken" attitude!

The AKC standard states the back should be straight and LEVEL.  What sort of normal angulation would it take to have  a level back?

There is a lot of 'creativity'  regards the standard...

Many people make the mistake of judging a dogs back from an exaggerated "show" stack in which the dog is set up. If you study the dog VM posted, the dog is fairly well angled and would look very different if set up in a stack.

How "straight and level" a dogs back is can only be determined in a natural stance and in free movement.

Best,
Rik

 " Are the WL dogs better per say in the topline area then the SL dogs?"

Well, in my completely, totally biased opinion, yes. But that's just preference. I can see why showlines people like the look of a sloped croup (NOT a sloping back as Samba mistakenly thinks it is; a level croup would be a fricking deformity). However, I personally prefer a tough monster whose croup angulation I wouldn't even consider measuring, assuming she would hold still long enough for me to try.

Maybe I am not understanding exactly what you mean.  The AKC standard calls for a straight topline, and the AKC GSDs have that.  Some WG GSDs have the roached back.  The back is different than the croup.

This is a completely straight back, you could hold a yard stick against this and it would be straight, and the withers are higher as stated,


This is a roached back, it curves to a steep croup, I'm not sure if this dog is rated in conformation it's just the first photo I found

Dude, it's not like I'm saying there are NO ROACHED BACKS!!!!!