Dog topic... Indi Doing Great - Page 1

Just a quick update...

Indi is doing very well  in her SchH training. She will be a year old next month and I've just started her protection and OB in full...We go to the club twice a week...  She is getting the hold and bark down nicely.. 

BUT she is always jumping up, spinning and twisting to get to the helper, so I have to keep downward pressure on the leash with my palm to keep her low so she doesn't hurt herself :-/
She stays calm while she holds the sleeve and handles pressure from the helper very well. Her grip has improved very much too...
Getting her to focus has been a bit of a challenge so if I can hold her attention for even a few seconds I have to reward her immediately or she will bite me lol.... She is super high drive and very dominant, so I am trying my best to stay calm and not let myself get too dominant with her, yet still get some control.

She likes to pop up at my face or bite me when she is sitting in the fuss position, so I am tryng to keep her leash low and loose with the right hand (so when she pops up she corrects herself) and pull her into the correct position and calm her with the left. The only problem with that is, me not being tall, she can still pop up and hit me in the face with her (hard) head... So we're working on it...

Any suggestions for this:
She also likes to bite my face and fingers out of frustration when she goes back in her crate, and she is FAST about it too.
Should I let her get the sleeve all the way in the crate instead of having her Aus first? Even while I'm latching the locks she's trying to nip my fingers through the wire LOL

Judge enjoyed his first session out at the club and is really into ragwork (He just turned three months) He's not barking yet, but he will before long, I'm sure.

Hope everyone's training is going well...
Stacy

Well not so sure why if she's "very dominant" you are worried about dominating her. I could see if she was super soft and would crumble under a heavy handler. Let your helper play the role of confidence builder. I mean, don't get me wrong! I'm all for letting a puppy kick my ass, but you're getting to get older and the last thing you need is a dog that has realized that biting his handler = win! As for the biting while heeling, that is hard to say over the net. She could be frustrated and biting is an option. You probably haven't done too much Obedience with her, so rushing to do the whole routine with very little reward might not be the best. If this is the case, go back and make sure you are marking and rewarding correct behavior sooner. It's black and white to her. If she is correct and focused, reward. You can withold reward for longer period after she knows what is being asked. If she's as drivey as you think, getting her to know what gets the reward will only make her more intense.

Can someone shed some light on the face popping thing? Are there basically two reasons for this... one is a friendly discussion and greeting, and the other could that be a challenge towards an equal, like someone who is regarded more like a litter mate?
 
I ask this because I have seen this with my dog and my youngest at certain times of "high activity". We try to get the kid to give the dog a command to establish his authority, so to speak. Is this a wise strategy? I hope this is somewhat on topic, Vom Ruiz, don't mean to butt in!

Hi Stacy,
One thing for sure, a video clip would be more helpful for comments.  It can be difficult sometimes to guess what sort of pressure is placed on the dog in bitework development; whether it from the helper or handler or whether the training is just too hurried which also depends on the maturity of the dog.

How long are the sessions?  Biting the face/ hands when placing the dog back in its crate sounds like frustration from the exercise. Let her carry the sleeve back to the car, place her in a down position if Indi is still holding the sleeve (but not mouthing) in a calm way and remove the sleeve when she disengages.  I know this can be problematic especially when the next dog is waiting on the field for the sleeve.  But it is necessary.  Over time, the dog will disengage quicker after the exercise.

Beetree, I believe the face popping thing is one way the dog is showing disrespect and resistence to the handler.  I had a friend's kid aged 8 years old who came to visit.  She wanted to do tricks with my dogs.  I explained carefully to the little girl that 1. she has to speak soft and calm  2. give the dog a treat when they perform the exercise.  She did well for the first two exercises but very quickly revert to raising her voice like the dogs are deaf and so I ended the session as I could see the dogs were already becoming unruly.

I will try to get some video, but since most of the time it's pretty late when we're out there, the video may be hard to see... But I'll give it a shot.

Sam, You are right, I have not done a whole lot of obedience with her. The helper loves working with her and thinks that she will be a very nice bitch, I guess that's why I'm afraid of being too dominant or using too much compulsion. I don't want to make her start acting "afraid" of me, even though she has never done so as of yet LOL
Working on rewarding her sooner is definitely something I need to work on. I catch myself trying to get that one last step out of her (or extra second of her focused on me) and that's when she breaks... So I'm trying to learn to read her better too.

Beetree,
I don't feel you were butting in at all, your question was very relevant... I know she gets frustrated but wondered if it was also disrespectful because she does it even after she spits the sleeve out on her own, and only bites when she's back in the crate...And as Poseidon said I can see she does resist me because she twists, turns, jumps, backs up to try to get out of the harness and fights me to get to the helper. Hence, me having to keep downward pressure on the leash to keep her from hurting herself. If that is considered resisting ME, I don't know, but she fights like hell to get away from me and get to the helper...  I will try to get video of her

Bob,
This is the second trainer I have been to, and I'm asking, not to hear what I want to hear, because I don't know what I want to hear, I'm too new of a handler to have a particular answer I want to hear....but to see if there are other methods that might work for her, since me not being tall enough, it is hard for me to not get popped in the face by her head or teeth even when I'm holding the leash downward for her to "correct herself" when she pops up. Even the helper said he knew it would be hard for me when he showed me, because of my height. That's why I was writing for advice. Hoping someone else may have been through this and had a solution that may work better.
I don't want to confuse the dog but I have been told over and over that the same method that works for one dog, may not work for another...  Just looking for suggestions

Poseidon,
The sessions are about 10-15 minutes I'd guess, not very long. And she does not mouth the sleeve just holds it and stares down at the ground. I think she'd do it for hours sometimes lol. Much of the time though she does drop it on her own once we get to the car, but I will platz her, wait until she is calm and see if that makes any difference. THANKS FOR ALL THE REPLIES
Stacy

Stacy,

Since she is almost a year old and from what you told me of her and what I know from her brother, I think you can tell her in no uncertain term to knock it off and that she CANNOT put her teeth on you. Use a little physical force if you have to. Just enough to get your point across. If she is anything like her brother, she is not going take it badly and I don't think she is going to be afraid of you.

Michael Ellis likes to say to that most dogs are not truly dominant. They are just opportunist. They will do something and see if they can get away with it. And if they can, they will just keep doing it. But if they find out they can't, they will stop. So with Indi, I would not just hold the leash tight and let her "correct" herself. I would correct her and let her know the correction is coming from me. It's like telling her: "I still love you, but you DO NOT put your teeth on me." 

Stace, she can be crazy all she wants while training. Your trainer/helper should help you channel that over time, but she needs to learn to settle when it's over. Obedience will probably help as you do more and she matures, but I certainly wouldn't let her bite my face and fingers like she's doing. A video is always good for everyone to give their input, but I don't care if she's high after working or whatever, I would want my dog to cut it out and would make that known to dog that it's time to settle.

Hi Jason!
Glad you wrote, thanks!  You're right about Indi not taking corrections badly. I haven't ever given her a harsh correction, but I did give her an unfair correction for a mistake I made and she was not phased by it since she was already so hyped up. I noticed it more than she did.
I was thinking about what you said about Ellis saying that most dogs are not truly dominant, and it makes more sense to say that she is opportunistic, and it fits with what Shady Lady said too... She has the opportunity to bite me, she does it.

And Shady, I do like her to come out on the field crazy-happy, but as you said she needs to settle, so I am going to work on calming her, as Poseidon suggested, before putting her away and see if that helps.

I definitely need to get some video for you guys so you can tell me what you think.
At the risk of seriously getting bitten I may even put her away hot, just so you can see her expression when she bites at me. She clearly is not doing it to (for lack of a better word) to attack me... But I'm fed up with it.
If I unhook her leash and hold her collar while she is holding the sleeve, I can wait til she drops it then snatch her up and toss her in the crate and by the time she turns around I am locking the latches, so she tries to get my fingers. But if I try to unhook her leash when she is in the crate already, that is when she takes a snap at my face. (I only did that one time by the way LOL, I learned that lesson pretty quickly!) But I shouldn't have to feel like I'm dealing with a rattlesnake every time I put my own dog away...right?

I plan on doing short,  maybe 8 minute obedience sessions with her every day two to three times a day over the next few weeks and hopefully there will be some noticeable improvement. She really is a nice dog and I want to do right by her :-)

Thanks again guys! Stacy

The first time I stepped on Ike he was about 3 months old and he let out the loudest scream and I looked down and there he was, sitting there with his stupid little poop eating grin staring back at me going "Hi, Dad, whazzup!" I bet Indi the same. They don't take this stuff personally. Now when we are heeling and Ike crowds, I'll step on him - not deliberately looking to step on him but I won't alter my steps to accommodate him - and he will still yelp like a little girl that he is when I step on him but he won't miss a beat and will keep on heeling. 

The only time I won't worry too much about biting or snapping is when you are trying to get the sleeve back after bitework.  With Ike I will either wait for him to drop it or I will choke him off it and then as quickly as I can, throw him back into the crate and lock it. At their age and also because they don't have an "aus" in protection yet, I don't mind that they get a little rough or angry with me there (within reason, of course).