Schutzhund question: do those dogs need that sleeve? - Page 1

I've been watching Schutzhund videos on various websites and am wondering: that is protection training, yes? - so what if my attacker does not have one of those bite sleeves on?

I notice also that sometimes the dog is wagging his tail - so is the clamping on the arm and swinging through the air like a game, or trained as such?

And can someone answer how Schutzhund training and personal protection training differ?

Thanks.

   Your observations are not without merit.A Schutzhund trained dog will NOT Necessarily protect you till the end in a confrontation.On the other hand,I have two companion working lines with no sleeve training,Protection Traing,etc,other than constant companions on farm,who will engage anyone who they deem a threat.
   I have raised companion working lines all my life,and the bond created with a dog,day and night can evolve into reliable protection.

I believe a lot of them wouldn't engage on someone without a sleeve. Wagging the tail can mean different things. In a strong tough dog most likely it's aggression. 

    Mark
 www.kampkanine.com

I will point this out just in case some one reading this is new. If your dog hasn't recieved any training and has never been tested, you shouldn't rely on it to protect you. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

If your dog hasn't recieved any training and has never been tested, you shouldn't rely on it to protect you.

Very good point.

Jim

You can test with a hidden sleeve, but if you need to test, then your dog probably won't protect in real life.  If a protection dog is trained right you already know he will bite in real life, same with police dogs, trained right equals WILL bite. 

"You can test with a hidden sleeve, but if you need to test, then your dog probably won't protect in real life"
 
I wouldn't be so sure about that. You need to proof a dog after training any behavior, testing a trained dog with different scenarios that it may encounter is crucial to producing a finished dog. 

If a protection dog is trained right you already know he will bite in real life, same with police dogs, trained right equals WILL bite. 

 I wouldn't hang my hat on this statement. Some dogs can be a little unsure in their first couple of real engagements. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but I've been told this several times from handlers that have. Unless your training involves live bites, how can you say a dog will bite for real? If you have a decoy that does please send him over. lol.

"If you have a decoy that does please send him over. lol."

i will take one of these decoys also.  mine is a little shy since the dog missed the hidden sleeve and latched on to his leg.

ps.  his tail was wagging.

john

IMO, a hidden sleeve has it's benefits.  Especially, when it is new, never used and the dog has never seen one.  After that it is just another sleeve.  The dog will smell it right away and know it's equipment and training.  We do use hidden sleeves, but we use two; in different layers of clothing.  We will do scenarios, foot pursuit after a vehicles chase and  the dog is sent and engages the decoy who runs and slips the first sleeve, the dog must release the jacket that has the first sleeve and engage the decoy again, hopefully on the other arm.  The good dogs potentially wind up biting the decoy for real in the legs or back, before he can transition the dog to the other sleeve.  It is tricky decoy work .  In that scenario the hidden sleeve works because the dog is sent at  a distance and doesn't have the time to realize the hidden sleeve is present.     

I believe that you will not really know how a dog will react until he has had his first "real" bite against a bad guy.  Speaking for Police K9's most first bites are usually not that committed and the dogs get better and better with each real bite.  It is the rare dog that engages with absolute intensity the first time. 

I think hidden sleeves are good for training especially if you can find items that are not canvas to wear and change the items up on a regular basis.  I recently got some new material that will be great the first few times, but after that it is time to change again.  I have enough to discard it after each use and I think it will provide adequate protection from punctures, but the decoy will have some really nice bruises. 

I like muzzle work, a dog that will engage with intensity and stay in the fight in a muzzle will fight for real.  Dogs that are so so when muzzle fighting or not really engaging will probably do the same thing in a real self defense situation.  For me a good muzzle fight is the best indicator.  

JMO FWIW,

Jim 

"The good dogs potentially wind up biting the decoy for real in the legs or back, before he can transition the dog to the other sleeve. It is tricky decoy work"

LMAO!!!!!
Thanks Jim. I needed a laugh

RPK