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by MVF on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
Has the following ever struck you as unfair?
Breeder A titles, kor's, puts her breeding stock through health clearances -- all this after buying expensive dogs -- only to sell her puppies to people who, on average: (1) own too many dogs, and may well excessively crate and/or pen them; (2) are likely to bully them in training; (3) bring much higher expectations and are thus more likely to be disappointed -- and may even complain about the breeder here?!
Breeder B buys a few dogs she likes, raises them, breeds them, without a title or OFA in sight, advertises them in the local want ad digest and then sells them to nice people who make them a part of the family, more often than not.
After years on this pdb, I have to believe that a puppy from a BYB is not worse off -- and is probably better off, on average -- than a puppy from a top breeding. A show dog is even worse off perhaps than a working dog in terms of time spent caged and transported.
Who can really make an argument that working line puppies -- with all their extra drive, besides -- are really likely to live nicer lives than local-yokel gsd pups being sold to fat little families who want to cuddle them, watch TV with them on the couch, feed them lots of nice treats, expect no more than a beginner's OB class, and treat them as a member of the family?
If a person from another planet were to visit this pdb they'd think our dear dogs are monsters who must be kept in boxes and cages into adulthood, or penned outside with an hour of personal attention, tops, per day. On the other hand, if they wandered through the suburbs, they'd see a heck of a lot of dogs living like chubby little furry kids.
Just food for thought. Don't get me wrong. I think a puppy whose parents had health clearances and is thus much less likely to be dysplastic, hemophilic (yes, that's the correct spelling of the adjective), or likely to pass away due to degenerative myelopathy is likely to have a better life, all other things equal! But all other things are not equal! The rub is that the healthy, well-bred pups are being sold quite often to "show" and "working" homes -- the former perhaps more than the latter doomed to be self-referential, instrumental, egoistic places where the dog is being shown off in lieu of the person's inadequacies -- and given a much more limited life.
I am sure there are plenty of anecdotes going both ways, and perhaps we will hear a few on this thread. If you were a dog, are you sure you'd want to live with a show home? A working home? Or would you take the family with the soft couch and fattening treats? ;-)
Breeder A titles, kor's, puts her breeding stock through health clearances -- all this after buying expensive dogs -- only to sell her puppies to people who, on average: (1) own too many dogs, and may well excessively crate and/or pen them; (2) are likely to bully them in training; (3) bring much higher expectations and are thus more likely to be disappointed -- and may even complain about the breeder here?!
Breeder B buys a few dogs she likes, raises them, breeds them, without a title or OFA in sight, advertises them in the local want ad digest and then sells them to nice people who make them a part of the family, more often than not.
After years on this pdb, I have to believe that a puppy from a BYB is not worse off -- and is probably better off, on average -- than a puppy from a top breeding. A show dog is even worse off perhaps than a working dog in terms of time spent caged and transported.
Who can really make an argument that working line puppies -- with all their extra drive, besides -- are really likely to live nicer lives than local-yokel gsd pups being sold to fat little families who want to cuddle them, watch TV with them on the couch, feed them lots of nice treats, expect no more than a beginner's OB class, and treat them as a member of the family?
If a person from another planet were to visit this pdb they'd think our dear dogs are monsters who must be kept in boxes and cages into adulthood, or penned outside with an hour of personal attention, tops, per day. On the other hand, if they wandered through the suburbs, they'd see a heck of a lot of dogs living like chubby little furry kids.
Just food for thought. Don't get me wrong. I think a puppy whose parents had health clearances and is thus much less likely to be dysplastic, hemophilic (yes, that's the correct spelling of the adjective), or likely to pass away due to degenerative myelopathy is likely to have a better life, all other things equal! But all other things are not equal! The rub is that the healthy, well-bred pups are being sold quite often to "show" and "working" homes -- the former perhaps more than the latter doomed to be self-referential, instrumental, egoistic places where the dog is being shown off in lieu of the person's inadequacies -- and given a much more limited life.
I am sure there are plenty of anecdotes going both ways, and perhaps we will hear a few on this thread. If you were a dog, are you sure you'd want to live with a show home? A working home? Or would you take the family with the soft couch and fattening treats? ;-)
by Sam Spade on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
Or how about cucumber farmers?
Cucumber farmer A has hundreds of acres of cucumbers and sells them to Peter's Pickle CO. They take his cucumbers and stick em in spiced vinegar and cram them in a jar!
Cucumber farmer B has a 1/4 of an acre of cucumber plants. He picks them and puts them in his stand by the road. People stop their cars and take them home. They are used on salads, eaten alone with a pinch of salt, or if they are truly lucky, they are made to be the side dish of cucumbers and sour cream.
Just a thought
by nonacona60 on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
MVF, you make several valid points....personally, I would prefer to be the dog that goes into the family situation, and is a member of the family that sits on the couch eating treats....That way I am not valued or judged on what I can or can not do, but on my unconditional love and faithfulness, regardless of which bloodlines I come from....
JUST MY OPINION.......
JUST MY OPINION.......
by Two Moons on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
MVF,
I hear ya.
Moons.
I hear ya.
Moons.
by Sam Spade on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
Alright. Before I get accused of comparing a dog to a pickle, let me argue the other side for arguments sake.
For every sport dog that is crated too long or aften, there is a pet that gets absolutely nothing done with it. Pets can sit in a big fenced in yard all day and night by themselves. Is that better than a dog stuck in a kennel, but goes tracking, gets pulled out to do obedience and goes to the club twice a week?
Now how about the pet that doesn't get left in the backyard. He is indoors all day long and gets to go out a couple times a day for 5-10 minutes to go potty. The people don't do a damn thing with him because they work too many hours, pick up the kids to take em to soccer, make dinner, take a shower, help the kids with homework and put the kiddos to bed.
Are those scenarios any better? Because I'd be willing to bet that there are way more of those people than the ones you are complaining about. I'm not saying that excessive confinement is good, but don't think that all pets have a better life than sport dogs. And not all sport dogs are confined from the family.
by beetree on 07 August 2010 - 00:08
We've always felt any animal living with us, and especially the rescues, probably thought they just won the lottery. They live a pretty darned good life, here. My dog has so much freedom, he wears an e-collar, so he gets to patrol his acre territory pretty much at will. We are door opener and closers, true. He anticipates and participates, it is pretty cool. He's not chubby at all, he isn't rock hard muscle like he could be, maybe, but he is not fat! We have healthy treats, and don't overfeed, not fair, lol.
A healthy, long-lived dog is at the top of my list of desired traits. I would have no problem getting another showline for a future dog, and it would probably never need to see a crate after puppyhood or houseproofing. I would take a workingline, too, but if I'm not planning on doing Schutzhund, it will probably be nigh impossible for someone to want to sell me a good dog.
A healthy, long-lived dog is at the top of my list of desired traits. I would have no problem getting another showline for a future dog, and it would probably never need to see a crate after puppyhood or houseproofing. I would take a workingline, too, but if I'm not planning on doing Schutzhund, it will probably be nigh impossible for someone to want to sell me a good dog.
by Bhaugh on 07 August 2010 - 01:08
Hate to be the party pooper here but I would be guessing all the dogs who sit in shelters every single waiting for their ticket to come up wouldnt be thinking the same. I dont support any byb because when it comes time to take the dog back for whatever the reason, they are no where to be found. At least with a respectable breeder your chances of a healthy, well tempered dog is improved. Never for sure but better none the less.
Barb
by Two Moons on 07 August 2010 - 01:08
I see an awful lot of problems here from what are supposed to be reputable breeders.
Lets just say this is more of an individual involvement as opposed to any one group.
Lets just say this is more of an individual involvement as opposed to any one group.
by Doberdoodle on 07 August 2010 - 02:08
Plenty of BYB dogs end up chained in the backyard, neglected, or bullied in training, as well. But I do get your idea, like dogs are treated more like prize-winning-ego-boosting livestock than as beloved companion/pets.
If I were a dog, I would NOT want a "typical" pet home. The typical pet is left confined in a crate or house about 9 hours a day. Then your owner comes home tired from work, you get a walk for a few blocks (or just put into the yard), and you get to sit there while your owner zones out watching tv. Usually only on the weekends do you get to go somewhere, if at all. For food, you get grocery store junk.
The show home or working home, however-- you might be the star. Maybe you get a family that loves showing dogs and doesn't even have human kids, so you get all the attention. Like a home where the sofa cushions have dog heads on them and photos of dogs all over the walls, you even have your own Dogster page because they're so obsessed with you. And the working part is fun, too, you get to do what comes naturally and feels good, like bitework and agility. You enjoy listening to your owner and making them happy during obedience. Hopefully you get a raw diet, and you get to travel and have more attention. I would rather live inside a house than a dog run kennel, but a lot of show/working homes keep their dogs inside as pets, and some have land to run and multi-dog house, so they can socialize together and aren't alone. I guess the important thing is the dogs get enough companionship and have all their primary and secondary needs met.
I would hate to be a dog living day after day in a run next to a bunch of stressed out dogs who pace back and forth all day, only to be used to sell my offspring, if that was the option, I would rather be dead.
If I were a dog, I would NOT want a "typical" pet home. The typical pet is left confined in a crate or house about 9 hours a day. Then your owner comes home tired from work, you get a walk for a few blocks (or just put into the yard), and you get to sit there while your owner zones out watching tv. Usually only on the weekends do you get to go somewhere, if at all. For food, you get grocery store junk.
The show home or working home, however-- you might be the star. Maybe you get a family that loves showing dogs and doesn't even have human kids, so you get all the attention. Like a home where the sofa cushions have dog heads on them and photos of dogs all over the walls, you even have your own Dogster page because they're so obsessed with you. And the working part is fun, too, you get to do what comes naturally and feels good, like bitework and agility. You enjoy listening to your owner and making them happy during obedience. Hopefully you get a raw diet, and you get to travel and have more attention. I would rather live inside a house than a dog run kennel, but a lot of show/working homes keep their dogs inside as pets, and some have land to run and multi-dog house, so they can socialize together and aren't alone. I guess the important thing is the dogs get enough companionship and have all their primary and secondary needs met.
I would hate to be a dog living day after day in a run next to a bunch of stressed out dogs who pace back and forth all day, only to be used to sell my offspring, if that was the option, I would rather be dead.
by Two Moons on 07 August 2010 - 02:08
There is nothing typical about any situation.
Still goes back to the human in charge doesn't it?
I hate one size fits all labels.
Still goes back to the human in charge doesn't it?
I hate one size fits all labels.
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