What are the sheep thinking? - Page 1

I was watching a cable show about rare breeds, and they where talking about the Puli. It is a sheepherding breed and the blacks outnumber the whites by a huge margin. The reason given for the preference was because they said the sheep responded better to a black dog.

So  I thought, maybe that is why Max decided to fault the color white in the GSD! ... (I just never heard this before so if it is old news, sorry) So, then I thought, that could be why lots of sheep guarding dogs are white, but the herders ... less so?

Doesn't this make sense, and does Max have any writings to prove such an observation? Anybody know?

Total nonsense in my opinion.

Color has nothing to do with herding.

Can't speak for Max....sorry

In all honesty, Beetree I would think it has more to do with the genetic faults that have a higher percentage of cropping up in a 'white' animal.

In particular I'm thinking of deafness, blindness, leathal white syndrome, vulnerability to skin disease.

If you think about it in a larger scale, Nature itself does not (as a rule, yes I know, there is the arctic!) support the color white.  In prey animals a 'white' coat is like an "EAT ME" sign to predators, while for most predators a bright white coat (except in the Arctic) is a "RUN AWAY BEFORE YOU'RE LUNCH!" sign to prey.

As for the sheep, well does anyone know how sheep see?  I mean, do they see color or do they see black and white, shades of gray?

Correct me on this if I am wrong, but I thought it was the Hitler regime that took control of the SV in Max's old age, and banned the white GSD.

And it became a Blue World from that time on.

Herding humans instead of sheep.

History provides us with the factual information that the White German Shepherd was an important aspect in the founding of the German Shepherd breed. History also shows us when and where the discrimination came from. During the time the white coat color was banned, science was lacking the information that we have today, and many false theories (although stated as facts!) were given to the white coat of a German Shepherd. Breeders thought that the white coat caused dark shepherd�s coat to pale into an undesirable light color. (Remember their focus was on beauty in a large way...) They also thought that the white coat was a sign of albinism or disease. Today, science and breeding history has proven that the white recessive gene masks the actual color of the dog, making them appear white, and brings along no health problems: in other words, the gene which causes white does not itself cause any other defect. They are otherwise genetically identical to colored German Shepherds.
WHY WAS THE WHITE COLORED GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG DISQUALIFIED?
That is a question that only the German SV and the German Shepherd Dog Club of America can truly answer. The SV was the first to attempt to eliminate white dogs from the gene pool through the dissavowment of the color around 1960. It was not always that way. In its early days, the SV registered white German Shepherd Dogs right along with all other colors. A dog named Berno von Seewiese, born in 1913 was one of the first whites to be registered with the SV. He represented a direct line down from Horand von Grafrath through Horand’s equally famous, (and some would say, better) son Hektor von Schwaben. For his part, Von Stephanitz had little interest in or use for a "beautiful" dog. This view often put him at odds with fellow breeders of his day. His focus was always geared toward agility, functionality, intelligence and usefulness. In his book, he stated: "The coloring of the dog has no significance whatsoever for service." Clearly, the founder of the GSD breed had no preference for one particular color over any other. What changed to cause the tide to turn against white colored GSDs?

By the mid-1930s, the Nazis were spreading everywhere and getting into all different areas and interests in Germany. Animal breeders did not escape their influence. Nazi Party members held memberships in the SV and increasingly exerted more and more influence over all aspects of the Club. Eventually, Von Stephanitz was forced out altogether. By the time of his death in 1936, the takeover of the SV by the Nazis was fairly complete. As with other animals, the SV and the GSD breed as put to the use for and by Hitler’s Nazi Party. In the flawed medical and genetic "science" of the Party mentality, all manner of ills were attributed to the gene for the white coat color. Discrimination was rampant everywhere. Such problems as deafness, blindness, albinism, mental instability, sterility and degeneration and loss of vigor were associated with and blamed on the white dogs. Once these beliefs took root, they flourished and grew, even after the end of World War II. With the breeding population of quality GSDs at an all-time low in Germany after the War, the impetus to remove these "degenerate throwbacks" from the remaining gene pool as set. Even to this day, white dogs remain ineligible even for registration as GSDs within Germany and throughout most European nations

Kitkat, could you give the source for that information, please?

Thanks!

 I saw a white border collie work sheep.  He was magnificent!  The sheep didn't seem to care what color he was.  My black GSD was next and he had good luck with the same sheep.

I think there was a simpler reason for not wanting white GSD for police work at least.  You just don't want a white patrol dog. 

As to the sheep, here's a quote from this link:  http://www.bordercollie.org/kpwhite.html

"The rationale against white dogs in sheep herding is that the sheep will not have sufficient respect for a dog that is the same color they are. (Marjorie Quarton, in All About the Working Border Collie: "There is a popular idea that sheep . . . won't move for a white dog, having no fear of a dog of their own colour." This strange idea, like most prejudices, falls apart when you examine it. Most importantly, it assumes that sheep are always white. The flock I work most often is composed of black, brown, white, and parti-colored sheep. If we needed a dog that is a different color than the sheep, it would have to be pink! The sheep have no problem recognizing each other in all those colors; why should they have trouble recognizing a different-colored dog?"