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by BabyEagle4U on 19 July 2010 - 20:07
bump
by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 20:07
I think you have to define exactly what you mean. To be honest, when I hear that term, I immediately think of nervy dogs that can't cut it in schutzhund. So, what do YOU mean? : )
by BabyEagle4U on 19 July 2010 - 21:07
actually I bumpin' all my favorited threads ... maybe I should change the title .. civil drive in dogs
why all these threads are blank I dunno.... but they were all great reading along time ago
why all these threads are blank I dunno.... but they were all great reading along time ago
by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 21:07
Oh, gotacha. I thought you were just opening up for discussion! : )
by BabyEagle4U on 19 July 2010 - 21:07
Ahhhh ya DUH !!!!
by MAINLYMAX on 19 July 2010 - 23:07
Bannned
by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 23:07
Yes, but it seems that it refers only to "defense", meaning the dog is defending himself. Right?
I mean, a bulldog will tackle and almost get himself killed hanging onto the nose of a bull, while in prey drive. My pit bulls do bite work in prey, as they are trying to bring the prey into submission, no matter *how hard* it fights. (Believe me, most people think of "prey" as "weak fight" when in reality, while a rabbit may not put up much of a fight, an elk sure can.) I understand that most sheepdog breeds can work in both drives, but the shepherd people I know tend to think that a GSD MUST work in both to be a good dog. I think this is an interesting subject, and shows the real differences in breeds. For me, a pit bull that feels pressured enough to pop out of prey and into defense is showing a fault for this breed. They should be able to take untold amounts of pressure in their "primary working drive" which is prey (meaning trying to overwhelm, not repel).
Anyway, interesting topic, thanks!
I mean, a bulldog will tackle and almost get himself killed hanging onto the nose of a bull, while in prey drive. My pit bulls do bite work in prey, as they are trying to bring the prey into submission, no matter *how hard* it fights. (Believe me, most people think of "prey" as "weak fight" when in reality, while a rabbit may not put up much of a fight, an elk sure can.) I understand that most sheepdog breeds can work in both drives, but the shepherd people I know tend to think that a GSD MUST work in both to be a good dog. I think this is an interesting subject, and shows the real differences in breeds. For me, a pit bull that feels pressured enough to pop out of prey and into defense is showing a fault for this breed. They should be able to take untold amounts of pressure in their "primary working drive" which is prey (meaning trying to overwhelm, not repel).
Anyway, interesting topic, thanks!
by czechdog9480 on 20 July 2010 - 01:07
civil is the desire the dog has to engage a decoy/oponent who has no protective gear on (ie. police dogs are civil as they will engage a person whithout a sleve or suit) Has nothing to do with nerve thresholds.
Ang
by jletcher18 on 20 July 2010 - 01:07
civil.
1 a : of or relating to citizens b : of or relating to the state or its citizenry <civil strife>
2 a : civilized <civil society> b : adequate in courtesy and politeness : mannerly <a civil question>
3 a : of, relating to, or based on civil law b : relating to private rights and to remedies sought by action or suit distinct from criminal proceedings c : established by law
4 : of, relating to, or involving the general public, their activities, needs, or ways, or civic affairs as distinguished from special (as military or religious) affairs
do you mean
civil defense.
the system of protective measures and emergency relief activities conducted by civilians in case of hostile attack, sabotage, or natural disaster
i will admit that i have used the term "civil" when talking about dogs, but it would seem that we use the term incorrectly.
when it comes to talking about dogs "drives" i refer to the book "Der Schutzhund" by Helmut Raiser. in it he describes and explains 4 drives that pertain to dogs. Prey, defense and avoidance behavior, aggression , and fight.
just something else to think about.
john
1 a : of or relating to citizens b : of or relating to the state or its citizenry <civil strife>
2 a : civilized <civil society> b : adequate in courtesy and politeness : mannerly <a civil question>
3 a : of, relating to, or based on civil law b : relating to private rights and to remedies sought by action or suit distinct from criminal proceedings c : established by law
4 : of, relating to, or involving the general public, their activities, needs, or ways, or civic affairs as distinguished from special (as military or religious) affairs
do you mean
civil defense.
the system of protective measures and emergency relief activities conducted by civilians in case of hostile attack, sabotage, or natural disaster
i will admit that i have used the term "civil" when talking about dogs, but it would seem that we use the term incorrectly.
when it comes to talking about dogs "drives" i refer to the book "Der Schutzhund" by Helmut Raiser. in it he describes and explains 4 drives that pertain to dogs. Prey, defense and avoidance behavior, aggression , and fight.
just something else to think about.
john
by Doberdoodle on 20 July 2010 - 05:07
My thoughts... Civil means aggression with the intention to hurt, to cause harm to the person posing a threat-- in order to do that the dog has to RECOGNIZE what a threat is. Where as yelling or a weapon and threatening gestures may "exite" a prey-driven dog, a civil dog takes this in a different way.
A sporty prey bite has nothing to do with the threatening person but is just satisfying the dogs own genetic need to bite out of prey, like a walking tug toy. Good police dogs are civil, and (most) sport dogs are prey. But all drives overlap, so ideally a dog would be working in all drives. Because the spory prey-driven dogs may score the best, it changes the breed over time to create dogs that score high but are not necessarily the best for actual protection or police patrol, in real life prot. the helper is not going to be correcting your dog, requiring respect out of your dog, or taking a bite silently (prot. dogs expect to hear that they're hurting you), let alone petting your dog after bitework and being pals!
But there are dogs with very little prey drive who will be hard biting if they are worked in civil protection, an example of this would be a large Johnson American Bulldog I watched doing "protection," the decoy was jumping around, using flirt pole, doing everything that would be right with a Malinois, but this Bulldog became uninterested quickly. They could barely get this dog to bite a soft tug. After being civilly agitated for a few sessions, he was biting on a hard sleeve. And no, there was no flanking or backing the dog down into fear biting, it was the opposite, the dog was built up.
An example of when prey drive towards a moving object won't apply-- when the "bad guy" is lying down on the ground in a ball, and the K-9 is sent in to bite. A dog who only bites a fleeing suspect and isn't trained the right way won't work out. I have seen "protection trained" Malinois sent on a suited decoy lying flat on the ground motionless, the dog had no clue what was going on and just stood there while the owner was like "Get him!! Attack!", nope. That is not a civil dog. If you can slip your winter coat off and escape the dog while he runs around in circles with his new prize, that is not a civil dog either. The ideal dog IMO is totally calm on the bite, not shaking or thrashing, but wrapping up and holding on with a deep bite.
A sporty prey bite has nothing to do with the threatening person but is just satisfying the dogs own genetic need to bite out of prey, like a walking tug toy. Good police dogs are civil, and (most) sport dogs are prey. But all drives overlap, so ideally a dog would be working in all drives. Because the spory prey-driven dogs may score the best, it changes the breed over time to create dogs that score high but are not necessarily the best for actual protection or police patrol, in real life prot. the helper is not going to be correcting your dog, requiring respect out of your dog, or taking a bite silently (prot. dogs expect to hear that they're hurting you), let alone petting your dog after bitework and being pals!
But there are dogs with very little prey drive who will be hard biting if they are worked in civil protection, an example of this would be a large Johnson American Bulldog I watched doing "protection," the decoy was jumping around, using flirt pole, doing everything that would be right with a Malinois, but this Bulldog became uninterested quickly. They could barely get this dog to bite a soft tug. After being civilly agitated for a few sessions, he was biting on a hard sleeve. And no, there was no flanking or backing the dog down into fear biting, it was the opposite, the dog was built up.
An example of when prey drive towards a moving object won't apply-- when the "bad guy" is lying down on the ground in a ball, and the K-9 is sent in to bite. A dog who only bites a fleeing suspect and isn't trained the right way won't work out. I have seen "protection trained" Malinois sent on a suited decoy lying flat on the ground motionless, the dog had no clue what was going on and just stood there while the owner was like "Get him!! Attack!", nope. That is not a civil dog. If you can slip your winter coat off and escape the dog while he runs around in circles with his new prize, that is not a civil dog either. The ideal dog IMO is totally calm on the bite, not shaking or thrashing, but wrapping up and holding on with a deep bite.
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