Dealing with a stubborn dog - Page 1

I'm sure most have dealt with a stubborn dog at one time or another. I'm wondering how you would handle a situation like this.

The issue is with my 6 yr old WL male. He has been trained, but only for basic obedience. And up  until a few months ago, he was very well behaved. Never had any problems at all calling him inside. So when he decided to plunk down in the middle of the back yard one afternoon and give me the finger, I was pretty surprised.

As soon as I called him inside that day he dropped to the ground and just stared at me. I called  to him a few more times. Nothing. Then I used my drill sargeant voice, which he has never disobeyed before,  and ordered him to come. Still nothing. The dog is still laying in the same spot just watching me.

So I figured here we go. This must be my challenge to see who's the boss. (The dog weighs 120 lbs and was wearing only a nylon collar.) I did manage to get the dog inside but had to literally drag him across the yard and up the back steps.

All was fine for the next few weeks, then the exact same thing happened again. I had put a regular choke collar on him this time, which didn't phase him at all. I was none too gentle dragging him inside, but he still wouldn't cooperate.

I'm thinking about a prong collar, but have never used one before. I'm also wondering if this behavior is typical of a middle aged WL GSD. Do they all "test the water" at some point or another? I don't recall any of my other dogs doing this, at least not at this age. This particular dog is usually pretty sensitive and doesn't like it if I'm upset with him. So having to drag him in the house is really out of character for him.

I have Huskies the breed known for being being stubborn.   When working with them, if they wouldn't listen when I called, I would verbally correct the one who didn't listen with the correction worc I used for that specific dog, which could be no, or that's enough.....and then I would tell the one who didn't come, to come here.  It worked with my guys, yours may be different though.

There are two ways to approach this:

Brute force

Out thinking dog


Dog trainers tend to use brute force, because we can.  Starts with a choke chain, progresses to prong, then sharpened prong then electric... etc.

Marine mammal trainers developed positive training because they couldn't choke or shock a whale, leopared seal or what have you.  Those animals would kill you if you tried it.  We dog people don't even begin to know what the word "dominant" means with our domesticated animals! : )

I manage a house with around 10 pit bulls and a little patterdale terrier.  I'm old and fat and crippled and walk with a cane.  My muscle disease gives me constant life altering muscle cramps, every few minutes, so there is NO way I can out muscle my dogs.

So, I learned all I could from a marine mammal trainer about how they train and I have never looked back.

From this experience this is my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

You CAN turn this into a big fight, hauling the dog in by brute force, or you can outthink the beast.  To do this, I do hope he has some kind of drives.  If you have a "deadhead" animal, it is much harder and takes more work.

If the dog has food drive, it can be as simple as marking the behavior of crossing the door threshold with a YES! and giving a NICE tidbit. Something special.   Practice this early in the day, before you NEED to put him up.  Let him out, call him, when he comes, "YES!" and big tidbit!  Do this many times. Then when the time comes that he refuses, fine, shut the door. Ignore him. He probably WANTS the attention you are giving him by fighting with him. Its a rare dog that doesn't seek out his owner
's attention as a positive thing. 

Do you have other dogs? If so, call them and make a huge deal out of feeding them as he lays there.  Chances are, he'll come.

Positive training is not "instant" training. You are building up behaviors.  You should work this everyday for a few weeks.  I thnk you will be surprised to find that coming in becomes a behavior your dog will want to do.  Also, call him in and then let him back out again.  Mix it up.

Some people will say that you are avoiding a "confrontation".  Perhaps, but if the dog is doing what you ask him to do, where's the issue?  If the dog lacks respect for you, that is a whole 'nother thread.  But marine mammals who perform complex behaviors 3 times a day, 365 days a year work far more reliably than our dogs, and they dont "respect" or even "love" their trainers!  Something to think about.  Let's hear how it goes...

maybe he's ill ?? My first thought when a dog has always been pretty predictable and goes off their game, is , maybe they aren't feeling well?  I'd do a thorough vet check including a tick panel just to rule out anything medical.

The dog does have medical issues, which is the reason I would rather not use force on him. He was diagnosed with Lyme Disease last year and injured himself somehow at the beginning of this year. The x-rays showed nothing but he still slightly favors one of his back legs. So he is no longer allowed to chase his ball as I don't want to cause further damage. The vet thinks it is most likely joint soreness from the Lyme Disease. She said if I wanted to pursue things further I would need to take him to a specialist which I can't afford right now.


I have started to reward the dog when he comes in on his own and it does seem to be helping. A few nights ago he was whining at the back door to go out. As soon as he got outside he immediately spun around and came back in, running over to the fridge looking for a hot dog. Smart dog. A lot smarter smarter than me :-)

I Agree with NoCurs that out thinkimg the dog is better than brute force. I just can't let the dog decide when he is going to come in.

I have a stubborn one too.  Drake needs put in his place every now and again.  Nothing major and nothing that a look or word won't correct, but annoying none the less.  My biggest pet peeve (yes, pun intended) is going out the door.  He's been made to sit back from the door since he was 9 weeks old and I have to tell him "BACK" almost every time we go out.  Ticks me off.

jakoda
you beat me too it Yes, perhaps the Dog is unwell, However any owner would notice that Certainly if the dog was listless off its food drinking too much water, Better get him checked out with a Vet first before deciding the best course of Action to stop this
However it seems strange he should start this business,  Me, i would get him checked out health wise before giving him anf form of correction, He deserves that on past history of being good
Steve1

NoCurs, I take exception to your statement.  I've been an all breed trainer since I was 20, I've trained some pretty bad eggs, and I've never used a sharpened prong, and anyone who uses one should be punched in the face.

Can I also say I HATE the word stubborn? It's a catch-all excuse dog owners use when the dog won't listen to them and I find very few dogs are actually stubborn, which I define as,"not gonna do it and you can't make me!"  on a regular basis. Reactive, confused, immature, disrespectful, neurotic, untrained....all of these seem to inaccurately fall under the blanket term "stubborn".

I get owners right and left who have problems with the dog in the yard coming when called. On closer examination, the quality of the dog's on lead and/or off lead obedience is always lacking. I often say, "How can you expect your dog to respect you with no lead across your yard when the dog barely respects you on lead a foot away from you?" Ask yourself these questions: Does he always stay for as long as you tell him to with no errors? Can you ask him to down, one time, without bending or pointing and he always responds? Can he instantly stop barking on your command at the door and sit quietly while you let a guest in? Can he heel on a walk without forging, lagging, or sniffing on a totally loose lead? Can he completely ignore people and dogs while under your command?

Triodegirl, there are two phases of training: Teaching and proofing. Perhaps you taught your dog, but did not put him through enough proofing. Clearly there is a respect issue between you and your dog. Simply "showing him who's boss" is very one-sided and while your dog may do what you want, he will do so resentfully. I suggest you go back and re-proof all your obedience, be firm when he chooses to disobey but be enthusiastic and encouraging when he performs correctly. When a dog has lost respect for the handler, the entire relationship must be rebuilt.

I have another phrase I say until I'm blue in the face: "Always get what you wanted from the dog." This allows you to "win" as it were, but also gives you oppurtunity (which you MUST take) to lavishly reward the dog for performing correctly. Rather than simply dragging the dog by force into your home, I would have grabbed a long lead, some kind of reward, put the dog through a few obedience paces then work on long recalls across your yard and to your door, rewarding him with praise or a toy as you go along.

I am no squish and I am not afraid to use compulsion, believe me. But one-sided training, be it compulsory or motivational, leads to a one-sided dog. Correct training has balance.

First comes the why,
Have you figured out the why yet triodegirl?

Then the rest will become clear.

Moons, I'd take my dog to a shrink but he's not allowed on the couch.