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by Gertrude Besserwisser on 06 June 2010 - 08:06
It's strange, virtually all of the comments about the Sieger Show are about bite work. What you all seem to be forgetting is that the Sieger Show or as the Germans call it Hauptzuchtsiegerschau is about conformation. It is not the Bundesiegerprufung. The performance championship. And even the Bundessiegerprufung is not simply about bite work. Most championships are not won or lost in Part C but in obedience.
A German Shepherd Dog was not bred to be a bite machine. It was bred for intelligence and the ability to do many things. At GSD sieger shows we require all dogs in the working class to do a defense against the attack on handler and the courage test or long grip. It is a qualification for entry into the show ring where conformation will be judged. And this is what everyone who is moaning is losing sight of. It is not schutzhund trial. Perhaps we should make the dogs do the retrieve over the wall, and then you might moan the wall is no longer verticle like in the old days.
The German Shepherd Dog was created as a herding dog, then used by the Berlin Police as a tracking, scenting dog, then by the Army of the Second Reich as a messenger dog and a red cross dog. Then it was found that it could be a seeing eye dog. Then an avalanche rescue dog. Then in the WWII by the Nazis as a concentration camp and attack dog...
Today, the GSD is still used as a herding dog, and in Europe a seeing eye dog, a therapy dog, a search and rescue dog, as well as a police dog, a military dog, and let us not forget a family companion.
But back to the Sieger Show. It is, I repeat a conformation show and that is what we should all be interested in here. Of course, we do not want dogs that run away from the helper or that defend weakly. But we also we do not need dogs which can finish in the top 10 in the nationals. The sport people tend to forget that the GSD is supposed to be an all rounder, not just an animal that bites like a grizzly bear. Dogs that are used in the military are different dogs from those that are family companions or even all rounders.
The schutzhund prufung was created as a BREED TOOL to insure that all breeding stock had intelligence and working ability. When schutzhund became a sport, then like all sports extreme performance has become necessary to succeed. But don't think for a moment that the Bundessieger top 10 are anymore what Stefanitz had in mind then the VAs from the Siegershow.
At the nationals or the Bundessieger no one is all het up or endlesslying discussing conformation. Why is it then that at a conformation breed show, everyone is so concerned that the protection work is not the equal of the great working dogs in the nationals or bundessieger.
I repeat, we do not want coward dogs or weak dogs anymore than we want gunshy dogs in the show ring. But the standard of protection work at a breed show or survey should be different because it has a different purpose, it is merely a qualifier of some minimally acceptable standard showing the dog can work in a workmanlike way. If all you are interested is bite work, then you do not really have the interests of the GSD at heart, you want something else.
A German Shepherd Dog was not bred to be a bite machine. It was bred for intelligence and the ability to do many things. At GSD sieger shows we require all dogs in the working class to do a defense against the attack on handler and the courage test or long grip. It is a qualification for entry into the show ring where conformation will be judged. And this is what everyone who is moaning is losing sight of. It is not schutzhund trial. Perhaps we should make the dogs do the retrieve over the wall, and then you might moan the wall is no longer verticle like in the old days.
The German Shepherd Dog was created as a herding dog, then used by the Berlin Police as a tracking, scenting dog, then by the Army of the Second Reich as a messenger dog and a red cross dog. Then it was found that it could be a seeing eye dog. Then an avalanche rescue dog. Then in the WWII by the Nazis as a concentration camp and attack dog...
Today, the GSD is still used as a herding dog, and in Europe a seeing eye dog, a therapy dog, a search and rescue dog, as well as a police dog, a military dog, and let us not forget a family companion.
But back to the Sieger Show. It is, I repeat a conformation show and that is what we should all be interested in here. Of course, we do not want dogs that run away from the helper or that defend weakly. But we also we do not need dogs which can finish in the top 10 in the nationals. The sport people tend to forget that the GSD is supposed to be an all rounder, not just an animal that bites like a grizzly bear. Dogs that are used in the military are different dogs from those that are family companions or even all rounders.
The schutzhund prufung was created as a BREED TOOL to insure that all breeding stock had intelligence and working ability. When schutzhund became a sport, then like all sports extreme performance has become necessary to succeed. But don't think for a moment that the Bundessieger top 10 are anymore what Stefanitz had in mind then the VAs from the Siegershow.
At the nationals or the Bundessieger no one is all het up or endlesslying discussing conformation. Why is it then that at a conformation breed show, everyone is so concerned that the protection work is not the equal of the great working dogs in the nationals or bundessieger.
I repeat, we do not want coward dogs or weak dogs anymore than we want gunshy dogs in the show ring. But the standard of protection work at a breed show or survey should be different because it has a different purpose, it is merely a qualifier of some minimally acceptable standard showing the dog can work in a workmanlike way. If all you are interested is bite work, then you do not really have the interests of the GSD at heart, you want something else.
by kegelbrecher on 06 June 2010 - 11:06
WHEN YOU ASSUME!
A very well written post. Also a very authentic and correct post that certainly reveals you as a breeder with a long track record in the GSD area. All of your points are 100% correct except for one thing.
Your post ASSUMES that all those dog in Sieger shows around the world EARNED their Schutzhund 3 titles HONESTLY in the first place.
The Schutzhund title IS INDEED A BREED TEST WHEN IT IS USED FOR TESTING!!! Not when it is used a piece of paper to be purchased for a sum.
The reason no one talks about the conformation of working dogs in the BSP, Nationals or the WUSV is because those dogs are not on the field with their handlers waving a piece of paper that they purchased that say they are V or VA. The handlers of those dogs are not being deceitful about the structure of their dogs. They are standing there and allowing their performance to state what or who they are.
The reason everyone gleefully and sometimes even cruelly poke fun at the showline dogs is because of the fundamental deceit that lies behind this.
So once this fundamental deceipt is resolved then surely everything else that you say is automatically true.
Until then it is as they say--- When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
----- Rob Shane
A very well written post. Also a very authentic and correct post that certainly reveals you as a breeder with a long track record in the GSD area. All of your points are 100% correct except for one thing.
Your post ASSUMES that all those dog in Sieger shows around the world EARNED their Schutzhund 3 titles HONESTLY in the first place.
The Schutzhund title IS INDEED A BREED TEST WHEN IT IS USED FOR TESTING!!! Not when it is used a piece of paper to be purchased for a sum.
The reason no one talks about the conformation of working dogs in the BSP, Nationals or the WUSV is because those dogs are not on the field with their handlers waving a piece of paper that they purchased that say they are V or VA. The handlers of those dogs are not being deceitful about the structure of their dogs. They are standing there and allowing their performance to state what or who they are.
The reason everyone gleefully and sometimes even cruelly poke fun at the showline dogs is because of the fundamental deceit that lies behind this.
So once this fundamental deceipt is resolved then surely everything else that you say is automatically true.
Until then it is as they say--- When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
----- Rob Shane
by richram on 06 June 2010 - 12:06
I find this post and others like it offensive and ignorant. I use the term ignorant, because it means lack of knowledge. Schutzhund is a breeding tool. The breed survey is a tool. Knowledge of blood lines is of paramount importance. Balance is what makes a good dog,not extremes. If you believe that the courage test is of "minimal importance", then you are doing a disservice to the breed. I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the American bred GSD vs. European GSD and why. This is not meant to be confrontational, but to get the brain juices flowing...................
by MaggieMae on 06 June 2010 - 12:06
To all the Armchair Quarterbacks -- Did you enter your dog(s) in the competition? If not, why?
Just watching this all "play out," it is very revealing how some people view the German Shepherd Dog and, yet, claim to be following Max's vision. IMO, too many are actually "perverting" the magnificent GSD. Also the comments reveal the distrust, backstabbing, and "sour grapes" that is very pervasive in the "Dog/Schutzhund World." You reap what you sow.
Bite/Bite/Bite -- that is all some can talk about. Please stop destroying the GSD. Thank you.
Just watching this all "play out," it is very revealing how some people view the German Shepherd Dog and, yet, claim to be following Max's vision. IMO, too many are actually "perverting" the magnificent GSD. Also the comments reveal the distrust, backstabbing, and "sour grapes" that is very pervasive in the "Dog/Schutzhund World." You reap what you sow.
Bite/Bite/Bite -- that is all some can talk about. Please stop destroying the GSD. Thank you.
by Wolfinbok on 06 June 2010 - 15:06
Gertrude,
How the hell are you? Very good opener, let me tell you my vision for the GSD, and
I will be happy to give my reasons. The GSD is now the most bred dog in the
USA. It has over taken the Labrador as number #1 dog. That was never in the cards
for this breed, and will be to it's detriment. I have not even considered owning one until
last year, when I finally started to see some top quality working GSD's.
So maybe out of the multitude of GSD bred, there is a small group of fine working GSDs, at least by my standards.
I am not alone when I tell you that if a breed is listed
as a guard dog breed than that is what it is.
I liked your comment's even though we don't agree on the direction for this breed , but the
difference is I have never advocated limiting it to show or work. Be sure you don't impact the
GSD improvements in working. Because you will be to doing much more harm
than you can imagine.
For years alot of good people have tried to maintain the working traits only
to be sacked by breeders who don't care about that aspect of the dog.
Also the beginnings of the German guarddog was people collecting rent,
or carrying large amounts of money around typically had a guard dog
with them. And I think this is where the GSD, along with other breeds were used.
How the hell are you? Very good opener, let me tell you my vision for the GSD, and
I will be happy to give my reasons. The GSD is now the most bred dog in the
USA. It has over taken the Labrador as number #1 dog. That was never in the cards
for this breed, and will be to it's detriment. I have not even considered owning one until
last year, when I finally started to see some top quality working GSD's.
So maybe out of the multitude of GSD bred, there is a small group of fine working GSDs, at least by my standards.
I am not alone when I tell you that if a breed is listed
as a guard dog breed than that is what it is.
I liked your comment's even though we don't agree on the direction for this breed , but the
difference is I have never advocated limiting it to show or work. Be sure you don't impact the
GSD improvements in working. Because you will be to doing much more harm
than you can imagine.
For years alot of good people have tried to maintain the working traits only
to be sacked by breeders who don't care about that aspect of the dog.
Also the beginnings of the German guarddog was people collecting rent,
or carrying large amounts of money around typically had a guard dog
with them. And I think this is where the GSD, along with other breeds were used.
by Keith Grossman on 06 June 2010 - 15:06
"I have not even considered owning one until last year..."
And now you're an expert?
And now you're an expert?
by MaggieMae on 06 June 2010 - 15:06
Maybe the GSD is extremely popular at this time because people are feeling very insecure / unsafe in today's society. Just a thought.
by Wolfinbok on 06 June 2010 - 15:06
Keith,
I owned GSD's about 25 years ago. I am just a working dog trainer, have been
for a long time. So I have to extract the emotion, and be critical about my evaluation.
The fact that I have been looking at GSD as a possible breed is a good thing. My
first dog was a German Shepherd, he was a very good dog. But For the last 15 years
I have not even considered owning one, until about a year ago.
You don't have to be a expert to make, a comment. But I have either seen,
competed, or worked the best GSD's for at least 15 Years. So I am
qualified to give my opinion. By the way how is your dog doing I hope he is
getting better. Mine seem to be doing fine.
I owned GSD's about 25 years ago. I am just a working dog trainer, have been
for a long time. So I have to extract the emotion, and be critical about my evaluation.
The fact that I have been looking at GSD as a possible breed is a good thing. My
first dog was a German Shepherd, he was a very good dog. But For the last 15 years
I have not even considered owning one, until about a year ago.
You don't have to be a expert to make, a comment. But I have either seen,
competed, or worked the best GSD's for at least 15 Years. So I am
qualified to give my opinion. By the way how is your dog doing I hope he is
getting better. Mine seem to be doing fine.
by amitshep on 07 June 2010 - 06:06
Hi, I’m from India, and I love GSD’s more than anything. The scene is different here around GSD’s. There is no schh or breed survey.
My idea for GSD is a dog with intelligence which should be appeared through his eyes and his expressions, and a versatile dog who can be your guard, companion, therapy dog etc. I preferred them as my companion, so what should I expect from them? They are obedient do things what I asked for; they live with me inside home, sleep around ma bed, or in kennels if I want to without any sorrow. They do things what I wanted from them (aren’t they obedient as a companion? No messed up, nothing). Now came to protection, I have dogs from most successful bloodlines in BSZS, they all are inherited with strong temperaments with very alert expressions. I tell u very funny thing, when I m out with ma any GSD on walk, when we are going through road some people actually change their road and do u know why? The way they walk confidently and the confidence and self assurance in their eyes make that happen. Just take this thing in your mind in this unsecured world and forget to enter ma home without permission. They also do the bite work as I trained them after watching some bite work videos. I never felt lonely, I m not shy as before because I meet lots of people who want to see my buddies at shows or at home. Isn’t they cured ma phobias as a therapy dog. They bring back spirit in life. For me ma all GSD’s are complete working dogs, because what they did is worked for me.
Now come to Gertrude Besserwisser comments I m agree with him.
by Liesjers on 07 June 2010 - 15:06
I would like to see more balance. The "courage test" has become such a joke and such a low standard has been consistently allowed that people have no incentive to change. Why not require a dog to be V-rated from a trial (regional level or higher) within the year of the Sieger Show to be elligible for a V or VA rating at the show? A "working class" dog should have trials in their scorebook. The veterans class is for the older dogs who should no longer be working and trialing.
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